You've raised an interesting point in posting this thread, SW, which is what Tech Log is all about. Well done in setting the tone for this discussion, but you are drifting, friend.
Your last post has added one or two complications to the initial 'we're on a 2 mile final and the radio doesn't seem to be working' post. In the case of the exceedingly unfortunate Swiss (not Canadian) MD-11 crew and their unfortunate punters, I cannot comment other than to say that, where necessary, procedures are changed. In this case, they have been.
For an uncontrollable in-flight fire, everyone, from the most junior of cabin attendants to the most senior pilot, is now acutely aware of the need to get on the ground with uncommon haste. We all were before the MD-11 crash anyway, though not only has this necessity been highlighted through the harsh reality of Swiss Air's experience but procedures have actually changed, where necessary.
Nonetheless, we wouldn't want to go throwing out the baby with the bathwater. That is to say if there is ever smoke in the cabin, we should not panic and call Mayday while diving for the ground or mid-ocean without at least attempting to determine whether or not the smoke and/or fire is controllable.
On the subject of minimum fuel at 600' (2 mile final) and no radio contact with Tower whilst battling against poor weather in a tight airspace environment, let me say I admire you are asking us to consider the prospect before it happens. I would add, however, that when faced with such a situation it would rarely if ever be the case that this is presented to you with seconds to decide.
To wit, you would know about your fuel state well before the final descent to land. The awareness would either be from a position enroute; at top of descent from cruise altitude, or when about to exit an extended hold in the terminal area, due traffic or other issues that required the hold in the first place.
If you were not aware of the fuel state earlier, well, I just don't know why a pilot wouldn't be, so let's not debate that one. Assuming you were aware of a low fuel state exiting the LAM hold into Heathrow, for instance, which is at a latter stage of the flight and quite realistic, then yeah, getting into a position at 2 miles final with no contact on Tower frequency is a tough one.
But the answer remains: go around.
If you are at a significantly low fuel state, you would have declared either a PAN or a MAYDAY, depending on your company policy. Incidentally, our policy is to declare a mandatory PAN any time you're looking at or below 30 minutes endurance on landing; a MAYDAY call is mandatory at any time it becomes evident there will be less than or equal to 15 minutes endurance on landing.
So if you're in that state, PAN or MAYDAY, you can be absolutely assured Tower will have a green light waiting for you should ****e turn to trumps and your communications be lost or unachievable. Failure then to obtain a green light is not to be confused with a clearance to land in any less a manner than receiving a RED light under the same circumstances.
If you were given a RED light when in the situation you've described and I've laid out in the above paragraph, surely you'd not land then?
So to the worst of worst cases: indeed, you are at the 2 mile position, you have declared a MAYDAY, you were in contact with Approach but are not in contact with Tower and they HAVE shown you a red light.
You go-round, as you must.
Faced with imminent failure of one or more engines, you reduce your pitch angle, reduce your thrust to that which can be considered minimum, take the gear and landing flaps up, but no more, keep the turn tight so you stay close to the airfield as you conduct a 2 mile wide visual approach by night or by day, in good weather or foul. Not visual? Come on. Let's be reasonable. If you weren't visual you'd not have seen the runway and couldn't land.
You have, after all, declared an emergency. And you have, again, been acknowledged by Approach/Tower as a MAYDAY, one whose comms have now been established by Tower as lost, hence the use of the ALDIS lamp.
In this situation, the answer is again simple enough. You do the circuit. While you're doing said circuit, the runway is cleared. You get onto finals and land, this time with the clearance. To suggest you'll get a second red light is going a bit far. We do need to keep this issue in perspective.
For the case where you've not declared an emergency, or state of urgency, you have most definitely got enough fuel to go-round, enter a hold and carry out the procedure.
I am concerned you might be overly worrying some readers. You have made quite a few odd statements, not least of which are, quote, "from an initial approach fix located at the outer marker...now everyone is going one direction and you´re in the opposite...I know if you´re under radar contact they´ll see you, but what if they can´t see someone else or what if they just don´t have time to divert everyone...besides, how are you going to proceed to the IAF, left turn? right turn? what if there´s no radar, mountains all around...
I believe ATC expects you to go to your alternate if you go completely lost comm and can´t see a thing, rather than trying a 2nd approach without radios", unquote.
1. The IAF is not at the outer marker, sir.
2. Everyone is not going in the opposite direction, if you enter the hold correctly. This is expected of you if you have an instrument rating.
3. Whether you're under radar or not, entering a hold is entering protected airspace. Doing so in a non-radar environment means little difference to doing so in a radar environment from the perspective of separation. The latter case simply means you will conduct yourself procedurally, which in fact ensures more separation.
4. If under radar control and 'seen', that is to say, you're a target on the radar screen, so are all the other aircraft.
5. 'don't have time to divert everyone' is not the way things work. You, as a declared low fuel-state PAN or MAYDAY, under the added strain of a lost comms scenario, are an absolute priority. All other aircraft will be sequenced calmly and efficiently and in good order. We're talking about professional Air Traffic Controllers here.
6. Not sure what you mean by 'how are you going to proceed to the IAF, left turn or right turn'. You will do as you should do when following the procedural approach. You cannot ask questions like this if you're to be considered seriously.
7. Quote, "I believe ATC expects you to go to your alternate if you go completely lost comm and can´t see a thing, rather than trying a 2nd approach without radios", unquote....May I ask what it is that makes you think anything? Reason, surely.
Is it reasonable to think your favorite armchair will take up arms and walk away when you try and sit on it? It is no more reasonable to think your chair will do so than it is to think ATC expect you to go to an alternate airport when you 'go completely lost comms'.
ATC expect you not to land without a clearance; to follow the missed approach procedure; to enter and exit the hold accordingly; to commence a second approach under a Lost Communications Procedure in accordance with the dictates of Lost Communciations Procedures.
Keep it real, people, and keep it real simple! By all means let's all ask questions. But let's all avoid positing ridiculous scenarios and any old nonsense that bears little or no semblance to reality.
Last edited by 4PW's; 14th Jul 2007 at 08:42.