Agree with you totally Call100. Managers seem to be told what to do by HR and they interfere in little issues, more than they should but when something big kicks off and you want them - they all head for the hills. They have no balls for a big problem. As for the pay talks, it didn't help the FS much that they had their pay talks fairly well dealt with then the AMICUS official goes into the BHX talks and still tries to use the FS to fight the fights for everyone else. Looks like he's shot his FS members in the foot