Captain Inaudible, First Officer X & Sexual Harassment. .. . I apologise but this is lengthy in response to the original and other comments. . . . .This posting gives the other side of a recent posting to this forum. . .. . No, what this posting does is to give another individual's opinions on a recent posting. If you are the second party to the remarks it is the other side. However, your PS comments quite clearly state that you are not involved. Everything you say is either hearsay or based on your personal dislike of MP. . .. .Its quite amazing how many of you just blindly accept the word of one person without stopping to think there might be another side to this story, maybe even first officer X's story for instance? . .. . You do people an injustice when you make such all inclusive statements. You may wish to reconsider this point. How many people actually know FO "X" and have some knowledge of the circumstances? How many people actually know " MP" and have knowledge of the circumstances? . .. .When you consider that pilots today are supposed to be trained in Human Factors it really makes you wonder if 'Animal Factors' would be more appropriate.. .. . Are you alleging that whilst the Training Department of your airline is providing HF courses that the airline is paying "Lip service" to the implementation of Human Factors procedures? Or is your comment on the inadequacy of your airline's HF training? Is this not at odds with your comments later? Or are your comments directed at the Training Departments and inadequacies, as you perceive them, of other airlines? . .. .If ever one needed proof of why BALPA members make BALPA ineffective and why some pilots make bad 'man' managers, you only need to read some of the previous posts regarding this thread.. .. . Where does BALPA come in to this? To the best of my knowledge MP is not a BALPA member nor has he asked BALPA for assistance in resolving the problem. In addition, you obviously accept, unreservedly, that some pilots are bad "man" managers. What criteria do you use to judge a good or bad manager? Is it how “nice” they are (see later)? . .. .Recently our profession was put on a social par with police officers and again reading through some of the inane, gutter dribble on previous posts, I now understand why.. .. . So what do you have against police officers? Care to publish your registration number here? . .. .Consider this;. .. .First of all this particular captain is a magistrate and has recently completed a degree in criminal justice (partly during the period of time when he was off sick with stress, gosh, how did he manage to do all that hard work when suffering from so much stress!). .. . Righto, you obviously know MP well. Moreover, you know FO X well. From your remarks you work for the same airline. Your airline's Operations Manual specifically PROHIBITS, as part of your contract, any discussion of company business with the press radio, TV or media (and this includes the internet) without the prior approval of the company. So you are either in breach of the terms and conditions of contract and liable for summary dismissal, or you have the complete permission of your company to air this public. . .. .As this captain is well versed in the law, more so than the average pilot, and seemingly so very, very, concerned about this alleged incident, (alleged is a word some of you should become more familiar with) ask yourselves why he did not pursue this through the appropriate channels, E.G. the courts, with a solicitor? . .. . The matter should be dealt with at the lowest possible level; if you took the trouble to read the ACAS Guidelines on disputes you would know this. Taking the issue to Court should be a last resort. But then your airline does use a sledgehammer to crack a nut (not my words). Moreover your airline dislikes intensely any adverse publicity. . .. .Is this type of post to a public forum really the way a professional person of any calibre would handle what is a personal matter between himself and the first officer concerned?. .. . This is not a personal matter. Are you suggesting that any sexual harassment is simply a personal matter and should be resolved between the individuals? Should rape victims, who are "professional persons” just handle what is a personal matter between themselves? Is not your previous suggestion that the matter be ventilated in Court an admission that it should be taken into a public forum? Or is a Court not public in your opinion? . .. .Perhaps this is just a vindictive, spiteful action with no substance, by a man who hadn't got the balls to do anything about it while working. . .. . Perhaps it was or it wasn’t. Make up your mind, but now we come to the gist of it. What MP did was to refer the matter to his line manager. Bearing in mind his recent experience of the efficacy of the airline's disciplinary procedures, what exactly would you have him do ? What evidence do you have that there was no substance to this? If there is no substance how could he take the issue further? On the one hand you castigate him for not taking the matter to Court and on the other you claim there is no substance to it. What is correct? . .. .Perhaps this is the action of a sad individual who waits till the safety of retirement to makes snide public remarks aimed at destroying someone just starting out on her career. . .. . Check your Part A, Appendix B, Page 7, "Contact with the Media". MP acted in accordance with his contractual obligations. I refer you to my previous comment about your contractual obligations! . .. .Not one of you has mentioned the fact that this captain has chosen not only to castigate this first officer in public but also reveal private information in regard to her training record.. .. . I suggest that this FO's training requirements were- to use your expression - common knowledge within her own fleet; they were not, therefore, private. One would not normally let lose an FO who required more than the " normal" training time without making some comment to the individuals that FO would fly with. I suggest that your knowledge and experience of pilot training precludes you passing comment about this. I also suggest that at the time you were not a Captain, hence you have no knowledge of what was, or wasn’t said. . .. . The fact that some of you have even encouraged this discussion indicates much more about your own personal failings than ever could have been said about this first officer.. .. .On personal failings, more later. . .. .Having known this particular captain for many years, I can assure you, I and many others on our fleet, know the answers to the above!. .. . If that is the case, it begs the question why nothing was done sooner to remedy this; this suggests that the failings, personal or otherwise, were generally accepted. From what you have said, were the management then not at fault if they allowed the situation to not only continue, but to give the individual more and more authority? I suggest that your assertion is groundless; if the claims you make were common knowledge the managers would have taken steps to remedy it. If you pursue your argument you are obviously dissatisfied with the effectiveness of your managers. You contradict this later. . .. .Before making this post, I individually asked seven senior female cabin crew members this question.. .. ."Can you name one captain who repeatably stares at your breasts while you are in his company". Without hesitation they all individually named this particular captain and named him alone. Perhaps he was checking to see if they were wearing full harnesses!. .. . Well, we only have your word for this as you individually asked them. Who were they? Is it normal in your company for Senior First Officers or Captains to ask senior cabin crew this? Does this promote CRM? Are you deliberately stirring up discontent? Do your managers know that you do this? Do your cabin crew find this offensive? . . . .The above, and please all of you be very clear about this, is common knowledge on our fleet.. .. . Again, if it was common knowledge why was no action taken against the individual sooner? If "several female cabin crew" disliked being looked at, why did they not complain? If they did complain was any action taken? If not, does that raise questions about the effectiveness of your managers? Does your company not have a published protocol for a harassment free workplace? I suggest that your statements are fabricated and inclined to do nothing more than create friction between flight crew and cabin crew. Moreover, I suggest that your statements also highlight your discontent with the adequacy and effectiveness of your managers. . .. .I have flown with the first officer in question on many occasions and I find her standard of flying perfectible acceptable and up to company standard, including her ability to land the aircraft.. .. . Are you a training captain? If not, what say do you have in the company standard? Does your company have training meetings? Are you involved in them? Are your standards different to the standards of others - this remark is simply aimed at establishing what you consider the standard. It is not derogatory. . .. . As a professional pilot that's all I am interested in, I don't care who she has pictures of on her clipboard or if she complains about unpaid expenses, (Fully Justified) I mean come on,. .. . May I just point out that the individual in question complained about not being paid; she would have, and could have been paid. She had not given payroll the details of her bank account. I don't think you can claim she was justified in whining. Payroll was innocent. Additionally, you obviously approve of photos being posted on clipboards; does that extend to posters on the walls of crewrooms ? Where do you draw the line ? If you have a gay pilot or steward do you object to he or she displaying gay posters in crewrooms? What is your view of a member of the public, a child, being exposed to this? Where is the boundary of your tolerance ? Is your tolerance reflected in the company code of practice? . .. .Captain Inaudible remarks are defamatory to the training department, training captains and the company itself. I think we all know who the company is by now, thanks to the captain who felt it necessary to mention that the FO cried on stand after a bad landing. To that captain I would say, "You have that effect on many pilots, even before landing and I hope your flying career is never judged on the standard of one landing".. .. . Sorry, if your FO cries on stand after a bad landing methinks that the individual should not be on the flightdeck. We all throw in a wild landing every now and then, but we don’t cry! Is she emotionally unstable? Or is it just because she is a "girly girl" ? Do we have to make exceptions for "girly girls" or do we treat all pilots as professionals regardless of sex, colour or sexual persuasion? Is that the level you see female pilots at? Is that the level you see all women at - "girly girls" ? . .. .By the way, the first officer concerned does know about all these postings. On arriving back at the crew room a copy of Captain Inaudible disgusting snide post was on the wall. I have sent this down to First Officer X with the compliments of Captain Slime ball, which pinned it on the wall. Sorry to spoil your fun lads but the good news for you is that the B.B.C. have recently announced that 'Andy Pandy' is coming back to our television screens!. .. . Are the B.B.C taking up this story? . .. .I have complete confidence in our training department and in all our trainers, especially now that Captain Inaudible has left.. .. . This would suggest that you had no confidence in the trainers or training department before he left. Or is it that you consider that the standards which he set will now be eroded sufficiently to allow you to exercise your inadequacies on a crew and the paying public? . .. . As we all know, anyone who isn't up to standard is removed from flying, it's happened in this company before but its not happened to this first officer and it won't happen, on this fleet. . .. . You have influence then. You can decide who will and will not be removed from flying-“but if it will not happen to this FO” - you have already pre-judged her ability as satisfactory under every contingency. So regardless of what this person does she is secure in the knowledge that she will get away with it. Isnt there a case going on against a gay police officer whom the newspapers allege thought he was beyond criticism because he was gay? Does this mean ultimately that this woman can be a hazard to aviation, and the paying public, but will not be criticised or be subject to any sanctions? If that is so perhaps on the OVERRIDING CONSIDERATION OF SAFET Y WE SHOULD NAME THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE AIRINE! . .. .First Officer X is a young, girlie girl, in common with many people of her age; her interpersonal skills are not the same as someone old enough to be her father. I understand she speaks out when it would be wiser to remain silent. I understand she complains when it would be wiser to endure. These are not sub human failings unique to her. As in any airline, we have some very intelligent people and we have some people who make you want to re-examine the history of human evolution. As professional airline pilots involved in multi crew operations we need to be able to adopt our tolerances and prejudices to accept a wide variety of personalities. . .. . For someone who “knows” so much you rely on “understanding” ,ergo a lack of personal knowledge and something that has come to you via another, for your opinions. Should she not have been able to follow your advice and adopt her prejudices and be tolerant to another personality? . .. .In my experience the captain concerned was unable to remain unbiased when dealing with people he took an obvious dislike to.. .. . That is opinion, not fact. . .. . He also singled out certain people, whom he alone, decided were not up to standard.. .. . Opinion not backed up by fact. . . . .His standards and his methods of applying them were noticeably not in line with other training captains and as such he was never taken that seriously within the training department.. .. . Correct me if I'm wrong but he was the Senior Training Captain! Did he and the Training Manger not SET the standard! How many other Training captains are/were there ? Did he have absolute power? I think not! . .. . He was one of those unfortunate characters who laboured in the belief that 'his' rule book was a bible and we all know the connection with fools and inflexibility, don't we?. .. . Let me guess here - you did your command ride, as I did, with MP. You failed. I passed. Get real, he only pushed people as far he thought they could cope to explore the boundaries of their abilities. If you couldn't deal with simple failures you were not up to a command. If you couldn't deal with multiple failures you were equally not up to a command. MP gave me absolute stick on my command ride in the sim, but I didn’t come out bleating about it. He was harsh, but fair. . .. .Within our training department he was unique in this behaviour. Instead of providing guidance and encouragement for those on the edge, his intimidator, unhelpful attitude would reduce their moral and ability even further. In fact I would use the term, 'a bullyboy' to describe his behaviour towards some people but he was clever enough to only treat certain individuals in this way.. .. . Absolute rubbish. If that were the case would the management not have done something about it? It cost lots of money to have people fail sim checks and upgrades to command. I can, however, think of another Training captain in your airline who decided to “move” the localiser by .25nm while the candidate was on approach; note there were no failure indications on the flight deck ! But they crashed! Doesn’t happen in real life ! . .. .Within the company he was known as 'Captain Inaudible'. His persistent mumbling and inaudible speech was the talk of the fleet. You would think that one of the most important qualities for a training captain would be the ability to be able to speak in such a manner that other people could actually hear what was being said.. .. . Captain Inaudible - that means you couldn't hear him. Someone else could. Had your hearing checked recently? . .. .In my flying career, Captain Inaudible is the only pilot I have ever had cause to complain about. I told the fleet manager that I thought he was unsuitable to be a training captain and I was told "not much we can do about it, we inherited him from the XXX fleet!". .. .With regard to Captain Inaudible comments about our ex-fleet manager;. .Again the defamatory remark about whether or not our fleet manager was effective is not a matter for comment here. I can however tell you all, that our ex-fleet manager was possibly one of the nicest, helpful people you could wish to meet. I have to say that being a genuinely nice person is not the description that springs to mind when describing Captain Inaudible.. .. . But you have just told us that- I was told "not much we can do about it, we inherited him from the XXX fleet!" by your fleet manager ! So is he effective or not? Your arguments run counter to each other! Either MP is right in that your FM was ineffective or your remark is not absolutely correct. . .. .I am afraid 'Captain Inaudible' has had an overdue retirement present he brought upon himself.. .. .I do however wish him a happy retirement and hope he channels his vindictiveness into the most suitable of new careers he has found for himself. However, I cannot help thinking that the way he has conducted himself in this forum demonstrates his unsuitability, even for being a magistrate.. .. .P.S. When I discussed these postings with F.O. X her comments were, "Rise above it". I suggest those of you who can, do so!. .. . If she felt that any of the comments were not absolutely valid would she have refrained form comment? . .. .Judge a man not on how he treats his friends but how he treats his enemies . .. . Touché . .. . If you have anything about you, you will make your real identity known. Otherwise shut up. Your Part A refers. Your arguments do not hold water. They contradict. You complain about managers on the one hand but praise them on the other. In short you your comments lack structure, objectivity and validity. Moreover, you feel that you are not obliged to abide by the terms of your contract, or are you actually a manager who has approval to voice an opinion in public? . . . . <small>[ 29 March 2002, 21:17: Message edited by: Vee2 ]</small>