Originally Posted by Topslide6
Pilot Pete,
At the risk of getting shot down again...you are turning this into a single-pilot vs multi-pilot operation argument. I was merely trying to stand up to the ridiculous bashing that 250 hrs F/O's have taken in this thread.
Err, no. I refer you again to this quote of yours;
As for the experience side of it I fail to see, and no one will convince me otherwise, that a thousand hours flying SINGLE PILOT in a light twin can in any way prepare you both flying-wise and experience-wise for flying a MULTI-PILOT jet. It's completely different flying, and only connected by the fact you leave the ground to do your job.
You can defend the 250hr F/O all you want. Some of us, with a little experience are putting a balanced view of the 250hr F/O. It has been said by yourself and others that many are extremely bright, switched on, capable and all round good guys, BUT, they lack experience (obviously) and the question posted in the first place was pretty much; should they be sitting in the right seat of a jet? I can understand why this question is being raised, because, like it or not, they ARE more of a risk in the right seat than someone with more experience. Your argument appears to be that they should gain that experience in the jet, others disagree. Your final line
Of course, the view from the left hand seat maybe very different.....
sums it up extremely well. The view from the left seat is SIGNIFICANTLY different and you have to rely on the pilot in the other seat, without the comfy feeling that an F/O has, that the guy in the other seat has vastly more experience and will act as their safety net.
Here are a few little examples that I have experienced with 250hr S/Os in my short time in the left seat;
A. His T/O, I hand control after lining us up on the runway. He stands the levers up, presses the TOGA switch and one thrust lever advances towards the T/O thrust setting. The other does not. He follows the one that advances and 'leaves' the other behind. As we start to roll slowly forward, but quickly sideways, I take control off him and sort the problem out.
Why did this happen? Lack of experience. Never experienced it in the sim, the normal sequence was broken and something unexpected happened and he couldn't think quick enough (even with the aircraft about to swerve onto the grass) to either push the other lever forward (which is why he was following the levers in the first place) or to close them both. I'm not saying a new pilot to type with more hours would have handled it better, but the chances are that he may well have.
B. Again, S/O as PF for take-off. Warning light on during T/O roll above 80kts (a 'goer'), I make standard calls of V1 and Rotate, he then 'snatches' the aircraft into the sky with me blocking reward movement of the control column due to his speed of rotation. Then follows a 'chasing' of a pitch attitude into the sky. Cavok conditions, we're not going to hit anything, so I let him continue, but it is an extremely untidy departure with me literally flying the aeroplane through him due to him forgetting all the calls etc. Understandable, and I hope that my chat in the cruise and encouragement pointed him in the right direction.
C. Last one, but just to make the case; The most badly flown procedure is the unexpected G/A and I had one the other day with a low houred S/O who was PF. Once he had pressed the button, that was about the last thing he did right, with me prompting, interveneing and pointing out that making a PA to the passengers before he had levelled off without the A/P in was probably something that could 1. wait, and 2. something I would be doing.
You were the one who 'failed to see' that Single Pilot ops had any value to the two crew environment, and 'no one will convince me otherwise'. Well, my reply was an attempt to enlighten you to the value to the two crew flight-deck of some single pilot experience, and not an attempt to 'shoot you down'.
There is not one thing you have listed there, apart from the bleeding obvious, that I and many (if not all) F/O's have to deal with on a daily basis.
Well, let's have another look at them individually;
1. File your own flight plans (and I mean fill in the form!)
Never did that as an F/O and none that I fly with have to. All taken care of by our Ops department.
2. Produce your own PLOG (admittedly using company supplied software!)
Yeah, fair enough, but I meant 'produce' the PLOG, building all the waypoints and alternate route, not just printing off the one produced by Ops, as in an airline environment.
3. Order your own fuel, catering, newspapers and stock up the aeroplane bar, make the coffee and fill up the snacks.
Yes, our F/Os phone the fueller and pass a figure. The rest however they know nothing of....
4. Meet and greet your passengers, brief them and arrange carriage of their luggage to the aircraft.
No, can't say they do any of that.
5. Load the luggage yourself.
Nor this.
6. Organise handling agent transport to bring the passengers out at the right time.
Nor this.
7. Do your own weight and balance loadsheet, techlog and assocaited flight paperwork.
OK, occassionally they might need to do a manual loadsheet, but you will normally find the captain does that unless they are close to a command assessment and ask to do it. Not one 250hr F/O or S/O, that I have flown with, has even taken a look at the loadsheet (computer produced) after I have checked it, even when I have prompted them to check it. I would argue that the 250hr guy has so much 'new' on his plate that this is one of the things he elects to just 'trust the captain' with.
8. Give the pax safety brief and demonstrate life jackets and emergency exit use.
One of the 'blindingly obvious' I guess.....
9. Fly the aeroplane single crew (the good bit)
One of the 'blindingly obvious'? Shame though, as that is the basis of the valuable experience of a single pilot experienced pilot. Trust me, flying the aeroplane with no-one sitting next to you to offer advice, timely intervention when you cock-up, reassurance, guidance, extra pair of hands etc is VERY different.
10. Gather weather and speak to agents and ATC (often working two radios at a time), often flying outside controlled airspace and needing to gain clearances to enter back in.
No, don't do that in an airline. (ps, I mean whilst flying the aeroplane too).
11. Deal with adverse weather, operational changes, inflight re-planning or re-routing, technical failures and limitations.
Only done by the low houred pilot under the guidance of the captain. And for the experienced captains out there; how often have you 'suggested' a turn away from the bright red weather disply to your low houred F/O?
12. Once you arrived at destination, deal with passenger and baggage handling, documentation and fee paying etc etc etc.
Again, not done by a low houred F/O in my airline.
So I am not sure what airline you think has low houred pilots carrying that burden of responsibility for their operation, but I doubt that ANY do. That's what they pay captains and Ops guys for. Good captains delegate and really good captains give keen, experienced F/Os the chance to run the show from the right seat in preparation for command assessment.
I'm just trying to put a bit of balance on the 'mass generalisations' that are flying around in this thread, but rest assured, claiming that all low houred pilots are 'good enough' is a little dangerous. Ask the
captains that have to fly with them, not the guys just out of training school.
Don't think I am anti-250hr guys, I am not, but understand the limitations and then perhaps
you (generally, to Wanabees), will make a decent 250hr pilot.
PP