Originally Posted by
Compton3fox
I argee but despite all what has been stated, it didn't work in this case and there are many other examples too. So unless we understand why and use this understanding to take whatever action is needed, it will continue to happen.
I just listened to the audio again and the AA PFs question to JFK TWR after the possible pilot deviation message was: "The last clearance we were given, we were cleared to cross. Is that correct?" He seems to be validating they were cleared to cross. He didn't question which runway they were cleared to cross. I think this is significant as it potentially implies he was still unaware they were in the wrong place. IE he genuinely believed he had crossed the right runway and was seeking Conformation that there were cleared to cross. Based on the way he phrases the question, it implies he was pretty sure they were cleared. IE Question asked in the positive sense...
When the tower replies, without commenting on what the clearance was but did say "We're departing Rwy 4L you were supposed to be departing Rwy 4L... you are currently holding short rwy 31L" Only at this point does it appear to dawn on tha AA PF that something it not right. Or so it would appear from the tone and content of the reply.. "Err.. Roger. AA106 heavy"
The tower controller just stated the facts. Which runway was being used for departure and where AA106 was located. This seems to be a text book response. No judgement was passed.
The other question I and others asked is why didnt they see the Delta Jet already moving on 4L when they looked before crossing? Or did no one on the FD look... or..? This seems to be the last chance of saving the day before the incursion but it didn't. We need to find out why, if at all possible.
When I see an incident like this(and many others), I understand that I am the kind of pilot who could definitely make the same mistake. Therefore, I try to figure out a procedure that is most likely to prevent it from happening again.
I like to share my solution on what can be done to prevent a situation like this. I guarantee you, they didn’t use my method. Those who do use my method will most likely prevent what happened that night in JFK.
We know why they crossed the wrong runway. Because they didn’t confirm that the runway they were cleared to cross was the runway they were crossing. If one already has a personal procedure to ensure that the the runway they just heard a clearance to cross matches the hold short markings and to always question any discrepancy, it will go a long way toward preventing this sort of error.
The similar procedure that is now widely used to prevent wrong runway/taxiway takeoffs seems to work well as we rarely hear about it anymore.
What the pilots said after the incident is not really relevant except to prove what we already knew…..that they were confused.
In a certain way, it really doesn’t matter why they were confused(in terms of the validity of this procedure). The procedure is based on the reality that pilots become confused sometimes for a variety of reasons and this is the safety net.