I still don't get it, if it's that bad it will get voted down. What does AFAP, AIPA or anyone else have to do with it, when the pilot body will either want it or not. The pilots will vote for it based on what each individual thinks and you move on, if it gets voted down, everyone needs to get together and work out what you want and work in unison towards it, otherwise you might end up with worse. If it gets voted up, then its done and dusted until next time, move on, the majority chose it. What other companies get, especially overseas is irrelevant, you fight for what you need here and now. In some cases the company will just stonewall and not progress, even with PIA, all depends on how much you want to fight for something. Any signs of disunity and the company will drive a wedge in to get traction.