Free First Officers
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That's not the question to ask yourself.. .. .The real question is:- Which would you rather have in the right-hand seat of a 737.... .. .Situation A:-. .Someone with minimal hours who is trying to build them up the fast way, thinking that para dropping, instructing and aerial photography are beneath his dignity and he OUGHT to have a job in a nice, shiny megajet, even if he pays to do so. .. .(Whilst, in the current climate, there are large numbers of experienced jet and turboprop pilots unemployed). .. .(Whilst the airline grins to itself, pockets loads of dosh from its workforce and laughs all the way to the bank). .. .Situation B:-. .Low-houred pilots start their apprenticeship in the industry at the bottom, gain hours and experience on little stuff, gradually working their way up to the nice shiny machinery. .. .(Whilst experienced pilots, with the knowledge and experience to operate the megajet does so). .. .(Whilst airline enters a deal with its workforce, whereby they pay them, and they give airline their time and labour). .. .Is there anyone else for whom the answer seems pretty straightforward? Does anyone wonder why the airline encourages situation A?
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Well it's your opinion that that is THE question.. .. .Where does the assumption come from that people like moi find aerial photography, paradropping etc. beneath us? You know that to assume... Well it makes an ... out of you and me. So stuff it.. .. .Facts. How many low-time pilots in my country (Netherlands): 500+. Number of jobs in general aviation in my country that are currently available: Maybe 25. Can't go to the US, no work permit, or to Germany, UK etc since the cost of living would be too high, besides, there's low time pilots in all those countries as well. So what do you suggest to position yourself in a market like this? Sit at home and forge my log book? That would be bad morals.. .You come up with the perfect solution, I'd love to hear it.. .. .I HAVE worked for a regional airline flying Brasilia's (paid) after my internship in the US.. .. .There are plenty of (good) pilots flying at my airline and those around Europe that have gained experience through either hour building programs in the US or schemes like the ATP program (CTC etc). The ones that are hired are good pilots and good people, regardless of whether they paid for training or not.
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The solution is that you don't degrade the profession and the salaries and conditions of everyone in it by attempting to jump the queue. Doing so is simply cutting your nose off the spite your face.. .. .Last time I checked, the Netherlands were part of the EU. So you can go anywhere in the Union to work. If there IS no work available, don't try to steal it from others.. .. .Sorry, but I find your lack of regard for anyone but yourself highly distatseful.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Sorry IZ, the issue isn't what the entry level jobs are in your part of the world, it is whether pilots should compete for them based on who can afford to fly free the longest.. .. .When (if you are not already)you go to the left seat, will you fly for free to gain valuable captain experience? We are all gaining experience as we progress through our careers, when is the point one should get paid for it? Maybe I have been cheating companies by getting paid as I have gained experience! You work hard for, and perhaps pay a great deal for, the licence that allows you to get paid to fly, don't minimize it by working for free. . .. .One would only work for free if one thinks they are not worth being paid. I'm sorry for those that think so little of their ablilities.. .. .This is an emotional topic (your posts, IZ, seem to contain some) because if, after 15 years, I can't get a job because someone with lesser experience will do it for nothing and I won't, I will be P.O.'d!!!
Join Date: Apr 2001
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HugMonster, my lack of regard for anyone but myself? Haha I have personally helped one person directly to a job for a regional carrier and another one on a jet. Both paid. I will try to help anyone! . .Don't attack me personally for screwing up the job market. That's something the companies do. It seems you wouldn't want to work for a morally corrupt company anyway, right?. .Besides, when I was flying there, there were plenty of jobs for US pilots, it was 1997, flight school were short on instructors because the regionals sucked them dry.. .. .Guys, I haven't stolen anyone's job. Please, how many times do I have to write this? If there's no foreign FO in that seat, they won't hire anyone for money (it's 135 CARGO and they have their ops manual set up so that all flights are two-crew except when the chief pilot says it can be flown by one, FAA-approved so it's the law -- I can't help it). But I'm sure if you apply for a job with them, they will hire you as captain. Anyone want? Mail me for their address. No joke.. .. .Jabewar, yes I'm sorry if I do get a little emotional. I still sleep well at night but being personally attacked on this forum does make my bloodpressure rise a bit. There are literaly thousands of people who have flown for free and I seem to be the only one who dares to tell the other side of the story and explain things. To explain how things really are and what the facts are.. .. .Fact is, nowadays in Europe, there are ready-made all-in flight training programs from zero to x-amount of flight hours. You pay for a package which includes all flight training, theory and a bulk of flight experience. It's not like "hey, I've got my licence, what should I do now? oh let's go and steal someone's job". It's all arrange before we even set one foot in a plane. And that's straight out of high school for most.. .. .So please, can we just take off our anger-vision and read through what I'm saying with a bit of rationality?
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Jabewar, reading the last sentence of your last post again:. ."..because if, after 15 years, I can't get a job because someone with lesser experience will do it for nothing and I won't, I will be P.O.'d!!". .. .Would you rather have a person straight out of flight school with 185 flight hours go in and get that 737 job for $5000/mo? Or would you then say "okay, it's all good, he gets paid so I don't mind".. .. .This happens a lot because airlines have deals with flight schools. Or their hiring guy is just good friends with the prez of the school. Many super-low time pilots get hired this way into 737's and A320's in Europe while guys at the regionals with 1000's of turbine hours are stuffed. How's that for fairness? And still everyone gets paid.. .. .Come on, honestly... . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 09:28: Message edited by: Iz ]</small>
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..and its the people in situation A that make me angry and sick. The airlines take the high ground and say they want people from Situation B, but all I see is employing Sitaution A.. .. .Perhaps I should get a new log book, and write out my first 200-300 hrs again and leave it at that and see what happens.. .. .So many of us try for so long and make so many sacrifices to get to our goal, if we get there, and we truely know the worth of the job when we get there, to ourselves, not just financially, and appreciate it. And someone walks straight in just straight out of being qualified and says hmmm think I'll give this a go for a while with no concept or value of the position they have been placed in.. .. .I'm f****d off!
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I´d still like to see where the FAA says it´s ok to log time as an F.O. when none is required.. .If you´re going to claim this you better back it up.. .If you´re riding along for the experience, fine, but logging it? What kind of training did you receive prior to riding along? What was your job description? What type of aircraft was it (surely you´ll remember that)? . .ANYBODY can work for free or pay for a job.
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This, PFT and similar issues always raise the blood pressure in here somewhat. But a reminder, folks.. debate the issues strongly by all means, from whichever side you wish to dress, but DO NOT GET PERSONAL in your arguments. . .. .And no 'He said, she said!" posts, please. Just carry on responsibly. Lets not lose a valuable topic in a morass of... of, er...ahhh, can't think of a good enough word, you know what I mean anyway!
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Iz, I am quite sure there were plenty of jobs in the USA in 1997. However, things have moved on a little since then, or didn't you notice? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .Nobody that I have seen has condemned airline-sponsored training schemes. Cadet Schemes are extremely common, and will return in due course. In these, the airline selects a bunch of wannabes, and sponsors them through flight training school, then puts them in an aircraft at the end of it. Everyone is happy, everyone gets paid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .This is, however, a little different from a low-houred wannabe jumping the queue with unscrupulous employers, who have hitherto had to pay FO's to fly. Along comes wannabe with a load of money in his pocket, and offers to pay the airline to fly the aircraft because he wants the hours in his logbook. "Whoopee!", says the airline, drops previous FO from the roster, who goes home disconsolate to his wife and kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> , whilst far more inexperienced wannabe gets his hands on his dream toy.. .. .See what I'm saying?. .. .You point out that the airlines encourage people to do this. Well, blow me down with a feather. Really??? What on earth can possess them to do that, I wonder? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Put simply, airlines will try to get away with everything they can, no matter what. That is why we have legislation on a whole raft of matters - maintenance, safety, pilots' qualifications... Having their workforce pay them for the time-on-type should be no different.. .. .I say again - Pilots flying for free for the "experience" are STEALING jobs from other people, and degrading the profession into the bargain.
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Iz, yes that scenario would be more palatable. Sure I would rather have the job, and the reality is that if the airline is going to pay they will likely recruit the best candidate they can for the money. If, however, someone with much less experience gets the job with the same conditions at least it was an even playing field.. .. .The question was asked 'what should I do in this job enviornment'?(that was the gist of it I believe). Like any other depressed industry and as many(myself included) in this industry have done, one perseveres until the job market comes back to ones level. I have, and may again, work outside aviation while I wait. No one ever said it would be easy (seems nothing really worthwhile ever is) but one must consider the overall picture and the longterm health of our profession.. .. .For me it is like being stuck in traffic on the freeway and watching someone cruise along on the shoulder. It bugs the hell out of me, but in the end I can only stand by my beliefs of what is right.. .. .As with every other cycle in this industry we will all be calling 'V1, Rotate' in time so we don't need to sell ourselves short. IMHO.. .. .It's spring break here so I am going to take the family to a cabin, forget about all this and play in the snow!! Have a good debate all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Hugmonster, I totally understand your opinion. I started defending myself since I was personally under attack by you, among others. So I try to tell you why I didn't steal a job. I was there for a year max when the industry was in an economic high, I know that it's not the same right now but I have nothing to do with that.. .. .I find it a little sad to say that the airlines that encourage these schemes can't help it because they're simply economic institutions. . .. .I agree that there are schemes that really only squeeze money out of young low-time pilots. And they are disgusting!! Some companies in the flight training and small airline biz border on the criminal.. .. .However, the position that I filled was never a job vacancy (like I said over and over). If I did fill someone's job spot, I wouldn't have gotten the intern-visa from your INS anyway. And the INS goes out of their way to make sure foreigners do not take up jobs for Americans, we all know that.. .. .Bigmouth, yes I do remember what aircraft I flew. So you believe that I'm retarded as well now? I don't need to prove anything to you. I have better things to do then to tell you all lies.
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Great thread guys,. .. .Plain and simple. I worked hard to get where I am now and I really disagree with the idea of others working for free, is bad for us all.. .. .Its bad enough 'buzzing'around at the low cost end, let alone being up aginst free labour.. .. .Thats it, me said my bit.
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Well, the INS may do a lot of things, but it is apparent that in this case, they did not protect anyone from anything. The "airline" in question, set up their FO jobs as a "training" facility and somehow managed to persuade the Feds, that this was cool.. .. .Personally, I do not care how you got about your hours, but suffice to say, I would much prefer not to do it this way and I did not.. .. .Secondly, re. the suitablity of the candidate, you could be the worlds greatest pilot, but unless you coughed up the dough: No soup for you!. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 00:07: Message edited by: Diesel8 ]</small>
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Iz, if you were flying in the USA as what (in the UK) used to be called a Pilot's Assistant, and the aircraft were certified single-crew then I'm perfectly prepared to make my peace with you.. .. .By the way, I get the impression you think I'm on the western side of the pond. Not so. UK-resident.. .. .I would, however, be interested to know what aircraft type it was. I assume something like a Twotter or Bandit, both of which were originally designed as single-pilot aircraft? In the UK, for purposes of public transport, whether it be passenger or freight, a two-crew aircraft is a two-crew aircraft. Full stop. You may sit in the right-hand seat of single-crew aircraft, if you have an RT licence you may even operate the boxes for the guy in the other seat. But on no account may you log the hours if you are operating as a non-required member of the crew.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 22:23: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</small>
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
As this thread is getting close to the 100 post limit I am closing it. Feel free to carry on a MkII version. I suggest you use the Terms & Endearment Forum.
