Originally Posted by
Organfreak
… attention to pitch and power would have saved the day in both cases. Why is that so difficult?
Pitch / power is an aspect of UAS drill, which was diagnosed immediately after takeoff and managed by the crew as they saw the situation.
You and others appear to misunderstand the operation of MCAS trim and control power of the tail.
Once the flap retracted, MCAS started to apply nose down trim, 9 sec on, 5 sec off. There are no additional alerts to indicate that MCAS would generate unwanted trim inputs - no forewarning; thus the only cue was a change in stick force (not looking at the trim wheel). This in part was counteracted by manual trim, which was the crew’s initial and then continuing attempt to manage pitch.
The consensus, but not authoritative view is that pilot electric trim does not override MCAS; thus the summed tail trim movement is nose down at high rate. With increasing tail trim the counteracting electric trim may be progressively ineffective (summed tail forces), similarly the reduced manual trim wheel operation after electric trim is inhibited.
At some point it is likely that the elevator power, stick forces, reach a condition where further pitch control is unavailable. There are no conventional piloting skills which will be able to ‘fly the aircraft’.
Originally Posted by
Lost in Saigon
Basic airmanship would dictate not raising the flaps when faced with a stick shaker at takeoff. That act lone should have saved the day.
No aspect of airmanship would ensure that flaps were not retracted. You assume that the crew had deduced the possibility of MCAS problems; but they could have been highly focussed on flying the aircraft with UAS. There were no warnings indications to the possibility of trim problems; no change with flaps up.
Check your assumptions; provide a supporting argument for alternative views.
Originally Posted by
AAKEE
…, if the Max had a pitch up moment, the MCAS downtrimming of the stab could easily be overridden by more elevator( elevator pitch up canceling out the stab downtrim).
There is a pitch up moment from the engine nacell’s at high alfa but it is allways less than the pitch down comming from the CG being forward of the centre of pressure center. The nacelles pitch up moment ease the elevator work to pitch up /decrease speed, making the stick force gradient to low.
Re elevator forces, see above.
Your appreciation of aerodynamics, controls, cg, etc, differs from mine, and I suspect many other aviators.