Originally Posted by
wonkazoo
I've been mostly silent on this thread, despite reading all posts. But that one rang a bell.
FACT: As far as the world knows exactly seven qualified commercial pilots have seen the scenarios that let to the loss of Lion Air 610 and ET302.
FACT: Of those seven pilots four are dead.
FACT: Of those seven pilots, and the three who are not dead, the only individual who correctly connected the dots was not either pilot 5 or 6. It was a jumpseater sitting behind them, who wasn't responsible for anything, who interrupted the mayhem and allowed the flight to continue and land safely.
A failure that results in an absolute 86 percent of its pilots being overwhelmed, that represents 66 percent of flights on which said failure happened ending up in microscopic sized pieces, this is not a failure that can be allowed on a modern transport aircraft.
If eight out of ten pilots who were exposed to a real life stressor are overwhelmed (empirically and though observation in known environments), how exactly is this their fault??
A failure that results in an absolute 66 percent of its pilots (and passengers) being killed simply cannot be blamed on the pilots. Could they have done better?? You bet. But statistics don't lie- and the numbers here show conclusively that MCAS is a killer unless you line up the slots in just the right way.
Perhaps more concerning: ANU trim above 300?? KIAS can cause you to have no trim control at all. I'll take on MCAS any day, but a stuck trim wheel with no altitude to give and... That's just nuts. I've been interviewing friends of mine who fly heavy iron. Not one can describe an airplane they have flown which loses all trim authority above a certain airspeed and tail loading.
You 737 drivers out there: If you are clocking 320KIAS and you try to use the trim- will it work if you are somewhat mis-trimmed nose-down?? 300KIAS?? 310KIAS?? Where and when does your trim tab become teh hammer nailing the lid shut on your coffin?? I am stunned to see here that people are not discussing this more. MCAS is an abomination, but alone it is simple stupidity. An Airplane that has an envelope within the normal operating range wherein trim will no longer not only be detrimental, it will me immovable...Really??
On every airplane you've got a handy indication of stall speed clean and dirty. If there is a speed above which your horizontal trim may not work, would there not be a need for a little line, to like, ummm, say "Hey dummy- if you are above this line you've got squat in terms of horizontal stabilizer trim control!!"
Finally:
Please stop trying to find the person to pin the blame to. This was a human failure, and it has literally thousands of possible inputs that could have effected the outcome. It is in Boeing's interest to minimize the actual events, as well as their underlying causes. But it is up to people like those of you here- to suss out the difference between corporate protective blame and actual culpability. The pilots had seconds to make decisions that would impact hundreds of lives. Boeing had at least eight years to make decisions that would have kept the bastard MCAS from entering into service in the first place. It is improper to equivocate the two, and moreso to blame the guys who only had a few seconds to guess and act correctly, as opposed to those who had years to do it right- and didn't.
Don't get me wrong- I know how proud we are. I simultaneously joined the Caterpillar Club and destroyed an entire airframe in 1996. I knew what had happened, but I knew that until the NTSB report came out NOT blaming pilot error I would never be free. And if it did blame me I would be crushed to the point of uselessness going forward. We are a proud profession, and we will eat our young in a heartbeat if we feel they have failed our standards in some way.
Eating our young here is a disservice to the profession. They went to work, did their best, their best was not good enough and hundreds died.
That should be enough penalty no??
Apologies for the rant-
dce
No analogizes needed. Superb post and hitting where it hurts: I also joined the "Caterpillar club", as you call it, in 2004, and I cannot tell you the number of pilots around me that (still) believe it could not have happened to them . A form of self preservation possibly ,together with a zest of overconfidence surely. Everyone has read about the "startle effect" in an emergency , and training for that is difficult and not really realistic in a sim . when you enter a sim you expect something unusual will happen.
So please , here , unless you work for Boeing and are afraid to loose your job, let's skip the notion that those Ethiopians kids did not follow proper procedures and are somewhat responsible for this accident..