Future of airline flying?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stick with marine industry. Yes you are away from home a long time, but then again you are also a long time at home. I really like flying. And if i loose my flyng job, yes it will hurt....but experience is not valued anymore in aviation land. And that is a point i am really disappointed in. I've send many cv's the last 4 years without 1 single shot. And that you don't have in the marine industry. Even after a few years you are not on sea anymore, you have more options to do somethng else in this industry, with a decent salary ofcourse. My advice: stick with your job and fly for fun, or as freelance.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ijatta
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I can't come back as a BAR Pilot, maybe this would be the next best thing...
McAllister Towing and Transportation Co., Inc. > Choose a Port > Port Everglades
McAllister Towing and Transportation Co., Inc. > Choose a Port > Port Everglades
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you think a daily changing shift schedule (Late - Early - Late, etc.) will do to your health over the course of 35+ years ?
Not to mention the same amount of inactivity as a battery hen. Everytime I went to my physio' for some lower back massage they kept telling me to be more active every day and spend not too much time just sitting still. Even a long distance lorry driver gets a decent break and some activity every shift. 40hrs per week of inactivity is inhumane.
Considering many modern pilot are trained monkeys then animal cruelty issues might be relevant.
Not to mention the same amount of inactivity as a battery hen. Everytime I went to my physio' for some lower back massage they kept telling me to be more active every day and spend not too much time just sitting still. Even a long distance lorry driver gets a decent break and some activity every shift. 40hrs per week of inactivity is inhumane.
Considering many modern pilot are trained monkeys then animal cruelty issues might be relevant.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was in the same position as you, a 19 year old Merchant Navy Cadet with a PPL, who was torn between the two careers. I did not go with CTC at the time because as you say my MN training was being paid for, and I would have needed a large bond with no fallback with CTC.
Long story short I am now 30 year old Master Unlimited who has just assumed command of my first ship.
With the benefit of some experience I would say this:
As an airline pilot there is a lot of time spent in the cruise monitoring systems, with high levels of automation. When I was a navigator on cruise ships, I spent 8 hours a day monitoring the radar, ECDIS, IAMCS etc. Pretty dull. But there less automation at sea. In fact when I am in a particularly enthusiastic mood I dig my sextant out and navigate with the stars.
Despite this I find the shiphandling a lot more of a challenge than flying, although granted I have only flown light aircraft. Trying to handle a large ship with a strong tide, in strong winds, into an awkward berth is very exhilarating. Every port is different with different challenges and it is a lot less prescriptive than flying. I find there is more going on in berthing a ship than flying an approach procedure 'by the numbers'.
There is nothing glamorous about inspecting a grey water tank as a chief mate, or getting covered in grease whilst fixing a lifeboat as 3rd mate - but it adds a practical dynamic that you won't get as a pilot - it depends on your character. If you want to stay in the warm and dry all day and not get dirty, then the flight deck is probably more your cup of tea than the weather deck; nothing wrong in that at all.
Both industries are cyclical - try getting a job at sea at the moment, its tough. But you will get one in the end.
It is hard competing against workforces from the far east, you will know that the vast majority of ships crews are Filipino, Indian, Russian etc. As someone from Western Europe you will really only find work on specialist ships. That said I have worked on cruise ships, expeditionary ships, ferries, square rigged sailing ships, cargo ships. There is a lot more variety at sea than in the air. Working on a cruise ship is a lot different than working on a dredger - compare that with transferring between an A320 and a 777.
As a class 1 Master you have a huge number of options: Stay at sea, go into the MCA, MAIB, lecturer, Port Ops, Ship Ops, Law, Insurance, Chartering, etc etc. All of my class mates have very successful careers. I also do a bit of moonlighting as an STCW trainer. It is a lot more diverse.
The major downside to staying at sea is the time away - 4 month trips are long. That said the standard contract for a Brit now is 1:1, and I do 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. This is much better, I find, than my friend who is a pilot and whose roster is constantly changing and has all sorts of different shifts.
Seafarers can be treated very poorly in comparison to pilots, especially when things go wrong. Look at the way the BA crew at Heathrow or the US Air crew in the Hudson were treated and compare that with shipping (Costa Concordia doesn't count he didn't exactly shower himself in glory). Standard practice is to arrest the Master after an incident.
I would consider getting your CoC, do a couple of runs as a 3/O to get a few stamps in your book and get some tax free £'s in your bank. At least then you can make more of an informed decision, have a fallback career and if you do decide to go on an airline scheme you'll have some cash to get you by (accommodation, car, food etc).
I know of pilots that are happy, some not. I have colleagues that are happy, some not. Just look at the long term, because whatever you choose at the end of the day it becomes a job of work that will need to support you (and your family if you have one).
Just some thoughts for you; if you have any questions just ask.
Cheers,
Richard
Long story short I am now 30 year old Master Unlimited who has just assumed command of my first ship.
With the benefit of some experience I would say this:
As an airline pilot there is a lot of time spent in the cruise monitoring systems, with high levels of automation. When I was a navigator on cruise ships, I spent 8 hours a day monitoring the radar, ECDIS, IAMCS etc. Pretty dull. But there less automation at sea. In fact when I am in a particularly enthusiastic mood I dig my sextant out and navigate with the stars.
Despite this I find the shiphandling a lot more of a challenge than flying, although granted I have only flown light aircraft. Trying to handle a large ship with a strong tide, in strong winds, into an awkward berth is very exhilarating. Every port is different with different challenges and it is a lot less prescriptive than flying. I find there is more going on in berthing a ship than flying an approach procedure 'by the numbers'.
There is nothing glamorous about inspecting a grey water tank as a chief mate, or getting covered in grease whilst fixing a lifeboat as 3rd mate - but it adds a practical dynamic that you won't get as a pilot - it depends on your character. If you want to stay in the warm and dry all day and not get dirty, then the flight deck is probably more your cup of tea than the weather deck; nothing wrong in that at all.
Both industries are cyclical - try getting a job at sea at the moment, its tough. But you will get one in the end.
It is hard competing against workforces from the far east, you will know that the vast majority of ships crews are Filipino, Indian, Russian etc. As someone from Western Europe you will really only find work on specialist ships. That said I have worked on cruise ships, expeditionary ships, ferries, square rigged sailing ships, cargo ships. There is a lot more variety at sea than in the air. Working on a cruise ship is a lot different than working on a dredger - compare that with transferring between an A320 and a 777.
As a class 1 Master you have a huge number of options: Stay at sea, go into the MCA, MAIB, lecturer, Port Ops, Ship Ops, Law, Insurance, Chartering, etc etc. All of my class mates have very successful careers. I also do a bit of moonlighting as an STCW trainer. It is a lot more diverse.
The major downside to staying at sea is the time away - 4 month trips are long. That said the standard contract for a Brit now is 1:1, and I do 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. This is much better, I find, than my friend who is a pilot and whose roster is constantly changing and has all sorts of different shifts.
Seafarers can be treated very poorly in comparison to pilots, especially when things go wrong. Look at the way the BA crew at Heathrow or the US Air crew in the Hudson were treated and compare that with shipping (Costa Concordia doesn't count he didn't exactly shower himself in glory). Standard practice is to arrest the Master after an incident.
I would consider getting your CoC, do a couple of runs as a 3/O to get a few stamps in your book and get some tax free £'s in your bank. At least then you can make more of an informed decision, have a fallback career and if you do decide to go on an airline scheme you'll have some cash to get you by (accommodation, car, food etc).
I know of pilots that are happy, some not. I have colleagues that are happy, some not. Just look at the long term, because whatever you choose at the end of the day it becomes a job of work that will need to support you (and your family if you have one).
Just some thoughts for you; if you have any questions just ask.
Cheers,
Richard
Very informative post, fascinating stuff, but forgive a minor quibble 
:
To be fair you can get similar in aviation - whilst a lot of approaches are "by numbers" these days there are still some that definitely exercise the skills and for example I'd suggest successfully landing a heavy off a "Canarsi" at JFK in marginal weather will leave you with a grin on your face that's still there when you get to the bar, and I'm sure those flying into smaller airports around Europe in their 737/A320s will tell you many of their approaches are anything but routine.
As for
...I feel you may get some feedback from those who do more walkrounds in a day than I generally do in a month.
:
Despite this I find the shiphandling a lot more of a challenge than flying, although granted I have only flown light aircraft. Trying to handle a large ship with a strong tide, in strong winds, into an awkward berth is very exhilarating. Every port is different with different challenges and it is a lot less prescriptive than flying. I find there is more going on in berthing a ship than flying an approach procedure 'by the numbers'.
As for
If you want to stay in the warm and dry all day and not get dirty, then the flight deck is probably more your cup of tea than the weather deck;
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Wiggy,
Yes actually after re-reading that I see it came across quite badly - sorry!
I was trying to say that we operate in two mediums - air and water, and sometimes with strange local phenomena I found it less prescriptive and more by 'feel'. Hence shiphandling courses are run with scale models in a lake rather than a computerised simulator (the few chaps that I have spoken to that have been in computer shiphandling sims report that the model did not behave realistically at all - I've never been in one). We don't have the benefit of ATC (our version, VTS is still quite a new concept and is still finding its way); and with the quirks of some ports it simply needs a harbour pilot with local knowledge to do the job safely. Still - at least if I stove it into the pier we can generally all walk away from it - unlike in aviation!
So what I was getting at was the differences not necessarily saying your job is easier - I've only flown light aircraft VFR!
Yep, see your walkaround point but I was driving at the actual maintenance work we do. Deck officers generally spend half their time in coveralls with spanners and screwdrivers. Maintaining Lifeboats, changing davit wires, overhauling sprinkler systems, changing hatch cover hydraulic lines, refurbishing anchor windlasses, - I think it's a bit broader in that respect.
It's a shame with all this post 9-11 stuff. I've jumpseated twice before that, in a 734 and a 744; both times were absolutely amazing and I wish I could do it again. Fond memories indeed!
All the best,
Richard
Yes actually after re-reading that I see it came across quite badly - sorry!
I was trying to say that we operate in two mediums - air and water, and sometimes with strange local phenomena I found it less prescriptive and more by 'feel'. Hence shiphandling courses are run with scale models in a lake rather than a computerised simulator (the few chaps that I have spoken to that have been in computer shiphandling sims report that the model did not behave realistically at all - I've never been in one). We don't have the benefit of ATC (our version, VTS is still quite a new concept and is still finding its way); and with the quirks of some ports it simply needs a harbour pilot with local knowledge to do the job safely. Still - at least if I stove it into the pier we can generally all walk away from it - unlike in aviation!
So what I was getting at was the differences not necessarily saying your job is easier - I've only flown light aircraft VFR!
Yep, see your walkaround point but I was driving at the actual maintenance work we do. Deck officers generally spend half their time in coveralls with spanners and screwdrivers. Maintaining Lifeboats, changing davit wires, overhauling sprinkler systems, changing hatch cover hydraulic lines, refurbishing anchor windlasses, - I think it's a bit broader in that respect.
It's a shame with all this post 9-11 stuff. I've jumpseated twice before that, in a 734 and a 744; both times were absolutely amazing and I wish I could do it again. Fond memories indeed!
All the best,
Richard
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did consider the MN in the past but ended up working for a bank. To be honest, I do regret in some ways not taking a role as a a Deck Cadet but I'm not sure if I would have been ready at the time.
I have however passed the aptitude tests for train driving in the UK and been to a well-known FTO for an airline cadetship assessment (passed three out of four assessment areas, failed overall). Now, I don't want this to come across as sour grapes (it isn't) but having done both I was able to compare railway and airline T&Cs.
Cadet Pilot Assessment:
Cost - £295 plus travel/accomodation.
Validity - Must resist each time, except aptitude and maths in some cases.
Resits - Depends on airline, no industry-wide limit.
Location - Manor House in the middle of nowhere.
Train Driver Assessment:
Cost - Nothing plus travel, can be sat privately at a cost but ultimately not a necessity.
Validity: Up to five years depending on employer.
Resits - industry-wide limit of one fail allowed, cannot resit if failed twice.
Location - Second floor office in Watford.
Cadet Pilot Training:
Salary - Usually zero, though Aer Lingus may offer a stipend.
Cost - Often over £100k, though Aer Lingus if effectively free.
Financial Risk- With candidate.
Train Driver Training.
Salary - £20-26k first year, £35-42k second year.
Cost - None, though if you voluntarily leave you may get a bill for a few grand.
Financial Risk - With employer.
Given that train driver roles can have 300 applicants per job, the supply-demand side is surely in favour of pilots. However, the railways do have ASLEF who are not afraid to get a bit militant if needs be.
A pilot will earn more over a lifetime but they only break even at about 15 years in.
I have however passed the aptitude tests for train driving in the UK and been to a well-known FTO for an airline cadetship assessment (passed three out of four assessment areas, failed overall). Now, I don't want this to come across as sour grapes (it isn't) but having done both I was able to compare railway and airline T&Cs.
Cadet Pilot Assessment:
Cost - £295 plus travel/accomodation.
Validity - Must resist each time, except aptitude and maths in some cases.
Resits - Depends on airline, no industry-wide limit.
Location - Manor House in the middle of nowhere.
Train Driver Assessment:
Cost - Nothing plus travel, can be sat privately at a cost but ultimately not a necessity.
Validity: Up to five years depending on employer.
Resits - industry-wide limit of one fail allowed, cannot resit if failed twice.
Location - Second floor office in Watford.
Cadet Pilot Training:
Salary - Usually zero, though Aer Lingus may offer a stipend.
Cost - Often over £100k, though Aer Lingus if effectively free.
Financial Risk- With candidate.
Train Driver Training.
Salary - £20-26k first year, £35-42k second year.
Cost - None, though if you voluntarily leave you may get a bill for a few grand.
Financial Risk - With employer.
Given that train driver roles can have 300 applicants per job, the supply-demand side is surely in favour of pilots. However, the railways do have ASLEF who are not afraid to get a bit militant if needs be.
A pilot will earn more over a lifetime but they only break even at about 15 years in.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: England
Age: 27
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
Thanks for the replies. I'm now currently at sea; and hate it. I've come across things I never expected nor would want to see again, with regards to the whole culture of seafaring. And its something I don't want to be part of, as well as this I realize that I have little interest in the whole sea going career. Although the money is quiet good I would rather do something I find satisfying which I am sure I will find in aviation. I'm hoping that my experience in the maritime world is something that maybe beneficial in the aviation world or at least when training. If not it is most definitely a self lesson. I was thinking about going the modular route and hoping that life experience as well as flying qualifications may leave me in better stead for flying jobs.
Whilst I find myself in a good position educationally and financially, seafaring is ultimately something that is not for me.
Thanks for the replies. I'm now currently at sea; and hate it. I've come across things I never expected nor would want to see again, with regards to the whole culture of seafaring. And its something I don't want to be part of, as well as this I realize that I have little interest in the whole sea going career. Although the money is quiet good I would rather do something I find satisfying which I am sure I will find in aviation. I'm hoping that my experience in the maritime world is something that maybe beneficial in the aviation world or at least when training. If not it is most definitely a self lesson. I was thinking about going the modular route and hoping that life experience as well as flying qualifications may leave me in better stead for flying jobs.
Whilst I find myself in a good position educationally and financially, seafaring is ultimately something that is not for me.
First night at Four Floors?
It's a shock to everyone. If you can knuckle down and put up with seafaring for a few years while doing your licenses you will find yourself in a very strong position when looking for jobs.
It's a shock to everyone. If you can knuckle down and put up with seafaring for a few years while doing your licenses you will find yourself in a very strong position when looking for jobs.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: six micro tesla zone
Age: 33
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Money is over rated. I was a volunteer at a charity once when I was in between jobs, it was the best job I ever had!
Fact of the matter is, I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. My first job paid £3,30/hr, my previous job paid £7,00/hr and the average salary in my part of the world is only £17,000/yr.
I'll quite happyily take a FO position on a B737 for £40k/yr over some of the crap I've had to shovel in the past! It's all about perspective, when you see through the slavery that is western consumerism, materialism and keeping up with the neighbours; you might be able to enjoy your modest salary that you get paid for doing something you love!
....and no, I'm not an idealistic, naive, Marxist!
IMVHO, it's a global economy bringing with it a global labour force, couple that with automation. Salaries and wages are on the decline as such, whether you are a bottle washer or rocket scientist, and there is nothing we can do to stop it!
Just my 2 pence.
Fact of the matter is, I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. My first job paid £3,30/hr, my previous job paid £7,00/hr and the average salary in my part of the world is only £17,000/yr.
I'll quite happyily take a FO position on a B737 for £40k/yr over some of the crap I've had to shovel in the past! It's all about perspective, when you see through the slavery that is western consumerism, materialism and keeping up with the neighbours; you might be able to enjoy your modest salary that you get paid for doing something you love!
....and no, I'm not an idealistic, naive, Marxist!
IMVHO, it's a global economy bringing with it a global labour force, couple that with automation. Salaries and wages are on the decline as such, whether you are a bottle washer or rocket scientist, and there is nothing we can do to stop it!
Just my 2 pence.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: England
Age: 27
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wish it was mermaids and sea monsters, I've experienced discrimination based on my ethnicity from other officers, and seen it take place towards crew, and I am not willing to enter an industry where this is tolerated, as well as finding the career unrewarding. In addition safety things I've seen are questionable. I am considering going the modular route for many obvious reasons. I am hoping that skills learnt at sea may put me in a stronger position, but I just cannot stick it out. I've come to a thought similar to MaverickPrime in that happiness trumps money.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: On the road
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's not good, racism on a ship. It's not like you can even escape it I'd imagine. I always thought a lot of different nationalities worked on vessels, Fillipino, Malaysian and European so suprised as its a multi cultural job. Are you on a UK staffed ship or a ship with lots of Eastern Europeans/Russian crew? I've a friend in the Merchant Navy. He mentioned the East Euro crewed ships can be a hard time when training due language barriers amongst other things. He trained 15 years ago aboard British Ships.
This one ship doesn't represent the entire picture and it's safety culture. Are you stuck with the one company or are you training with a company that places you with different companies for you sea training? If so, maybe worth a quiet word with your training manager re the hard time bit and see of they can stick you on a different vessel. You're there to learn, not be bullied. Its not the 1800s.
Have you seen this forum for cadets? Maybe useful. I see there's an anonymous bit to ask advice on sensitive matters.
OfficerCadet.com
This one ship doesn't represent the entire picture and it's safety culture. Are you stuck with the one company or are you training with a company that places you with different companies for you sea training? If so, maybe worth a quiet word with your training manager re the hard time bit and see of they can stick you on a different vessel. You're there to learn, not be bullied. Its not the 1800s.
Have you seen this forum for cadets? Maybe useful. I see there's an anonymous bit to ask advice on sensitive matters.
OfficerCadet.com
