Norwegian lays off 60 pilots
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Narrow,
I think we essentially agree.
I just don't want the commitment, hard work, professionalism, and dedication that the job of a pilot entails to be ignored and minimised for the sake of profits.
It's complex, and I have no answer, that is why I wonder where it will all end up?
I think we essentially agree.
I just don't want the commitment, hard work, professionalism, and dedication that the job of a pilot entails to be ignored and minimised for the sake of profits.
It's complex, and I have no answer, that is why I wonder where it will all end up?
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And would it be a fair assumption today and in years to come that not necessarily the best pilots remain in the industry but rather those that can put up with and accept the dwindling terms and conditions?
As previously mentioned by FBW, it has become economically unviable to become a pilot.
How many guys are happy on a sham self employed contract or a contract through an agency which almost doesn't seem to be worth the paper it is written on? I know its a difficult one as I include myself in one of these workers, and I appreciate how hard it is individually to make a change without the collective agreement of all pilots through a union or otherwise.
When will people realise in 20/30 years down the road that they don't have a decent pension, still no job security, mediocre pay, no health insurance etc etc, but are still willing to fly a shiny jet for a company that is ever posting more and more profits year on year.
Unfortunately it looks like this has become the norm the world over with ever more intricate ways of setting up the employment structure for air crew.
As previously mentioned by FBW, it has become economically unviable to become a pilot.
How many guys are happy on a sham self employed contract or a contract through an agency which almost doesn't seem to be worth the paper it is written on? I know its a difficult one as I include myself in one of these workers, and I appreciate how hard it is individually to make a change without the collective agreement of all pilots through a union or otherwise.
When will people realise in 20/30 years down the road that they don't have a decent pension, still no job security, mediocre pay, no health insurance etc etc, but are still willing to fly a shiny jet for a company that is ever posting more and more profits year on year.
Unfortunately it looks like this has become the norm the world over with ever more intricate ways of setting up the employment structure for air crew.
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My suggestion;
Regulate the flight training, take it off the free market.
Today lots of people are putting themselves in debts for life. Their shortsightedness stops them from getting a house mortgages, settling down with a family, all those things most people in late 20s/early 30s are looking for. A regulated market could bring out the best candidates for the job, not just the once who can afford it. It will balance the supply and demand which I can see brings back healthy employment forms (no zero hour, short term contracts). It will inject a reasonable amount of cadets into the job market and experienced pilots will not be undercut by cadets with too much money. Isn't this what a regulating safety body should be doing?? (read: EASA)
But of course this will never happen…..
Regulate the flight training, take it off the free market.
Today lots of people are putting themselves in debts for life. Their shortsightedness stops them from getting a house mortgages, settling down with a family, all those things most people in late 20s/early 30s are looking for. A regulated market could bring out the best candidates for the job, not just the once who can afford it. It will balance the supply and demand which I can see brings back healthy employment forms (no zero hour, short term contracts). It will inject a reasonable amount of cadets into the job market and experienced pilots will not be undercut by cadets with too much money. Isn't this what a regulating safety body should be doing?? (read: EASA)
But of course this will never happen…..
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John Smith
I hear what you say about those in the industry who took advantage and exploited the naive but if you think the newbies have not affected our T&cs, you're very much mistaken.
I hear what you say about those in the industry who took advantage and exploited the naive but if you think the newbies have not affected our T&cs, you're very much mistaken.
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I agree that the 'modern' marketplace for new entrants into the industry has very much changed the T's & C's, but I personally believe it is absolutely not realistic to expect the newcomers to protect the labour market.
That job falls to those already within.
That job falls to those already within.
Those contractors agencies are the EBOLA equivalent in the Civil aviation jobs. It really should be banned from the industry. Pilots, cabin crews and engineers should be directly employed by their airline company with a proper contract.
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To take this thread vaguely back on subject. . . . . . . .
We received (several days later ) a vaguely explanatory email from the DFO, with some excuse, but no "excuse-me".
In the meantime, via social media, quite a number of pilots accepted to fly reduced roster, on the basis that this would possibly allow for the laid off colleagues to reduce the period of unpaid leave, or , at least, receive 25% salary for a month & 50% for the next.
The organisation/motivation for this came from the pilots themselves. Another email was sent, with some other excuse, & a half reassurance that this wouldn't be repeated for these guys ( Good luck to the new entrants next year however) in which management tried to imply that they were some way to be credited with this initiative, that is B.S. it came from the pilots/for the pilots.
Way back in the end of Summer, an offer was made to all the contract (but not core) FO's of the availability of 50% or 80% roster (or even periods of unpaid leave) over the Winter, there was no mention that, if no-one took it ( & most thought, very reasonably "better to sit at home on 100% salary & do less. . . . . well, you would ! ) the next stage would be enforced unpaid leave.
In this instance, the pilots have stepped up to the plate & several individuals have had the pain reduced ( a bit at least)
This is a very heartening development, and bodes well for the next stage of our current struggle to avoid Ryanairisation (Oh, in my humble opinion of course)
The agencies PARC & ARPI have been advised that their services will not be required after the middle of the year, the 3rd stoogie (Confair) will not continue in 2015. Pilots hired through Confair have been given the joyous news that the company would like them to be employed (either permanently or as Contractors , depending on how long they have been in the company) through an affiliate of a "shipping agency" (looking at the shipping industry doesn't that sound promising
) whose aviation credentials thus far seem to mainly involve the "employment" of our USA based 787 cabin crew. With 1month & 1 day to go until termination with Confair no-one has been presented with a Contract for perusal, merely a "half-promise" that conditions will remain the same (why oh why would we not believe them. . . . . . do you want a list from the last 2 years ? ? )
In the meantime, at least 80% of Spanish based pilots have signed up to SEPLA & a request made to NAS for recognition. . . the response ? to pass it on to NAR (Norwegian Air Resources) who, in spite of being the future employers in Spain via NAR ES have decided to play the evasive trick "well, we don't employ you" . . .EXCUSE ME ? "we only provide you to NAS" . . .Oh yeah ? so NAS sent the request to you, but it isn't your Dept ? Ah OK , that is very clear, is this what we call "passing the buck" perhaps, NAS say "it isn't us" & you say " Nah not us either"
A recent second communication to NAS after the news that we would be expected to change agency awaits a response, & in the meantime we have the news that recently recruited Cadets, who were given LGW base, appear to be looking at the rather expensive luxury of providing their own accommodation/transport in Oslo , where it looks like they will spend the 1st 6mths of their time in NAS for Line Training ( & no doubt the rest of the Summer) to keep "Core" artificially small . . . just like all the guys from last year who joined from Ryanair expecting a Contract base, and instead found themselves on a temporary Scandi contract with all the attendant expenses & unforeseen (at least by them ) tax responsibilities . . . they were almost as happy as those that joined before them with the promise of rapid command (which has now migrated to Q4 2015/ Q1 2016 at earliest.)
Welcome aboard the "Happy Ship"
at least we take a little bit of care of each other, even if our employer doesn't seem to wish to.
Edited to add (as the Mods saw fit to remove my post from the main Norwegian thread) we now await with baited breath the "permanent contract".
It has been vaguely stated that conditions will be "very" similar to what we have as Contractors (as ever , the devil is in the detail) however, we have conflicting reports from different Spanish base meetings from colleagues who attended.
One thing that is certain however, is that the company is benchmarking Vueling when deciding the renumeration they wish to offer the Spanish Cabin Crew.
Should they wish to lower the bar to the same level for Flight Deck personnel this will surely spell the end of anyones desire to remain here.
Given the harm they have done to their reputation with this recent debacle, it will be very optimistic on their part indeed if they choose to score another "own goal" in such rapid succession,it is notable that the flood of applicants from RYR has already dried up (if not indeed reversed as per the "rumours")
The only thing that may give them the courage to try such tactics would be the fact that net expansion for next year is very low, before ramping up in 2016, maybe they do indeed feel like giving it a punt. . . if so, the training Dept can cancel that "quiet" year they were looking forward to.
We received (several days later ) a vaguely explanatory email from the DFO, with some excuse, but no "excuse-me".
In the meantime, via social media, quite a number of pilots accepted to fly reduced roster, on the basis that this would possibly allow for the laid off colleagues to reduce the period of unpaid leave, or , at least, receive 25% salary for a month & 50% for the next.
The organisation/motivation for this came from the pilots themselves. Another email was sent, with some other excuse, & a half reassurance that this wouldn't be repeated for these guys ( Good luck to the new entrants next year however) in which management tried to imply that they were some way to be credited with this initiative, that is B.S. it came from the pilots/for the pilots.
Way back in the end of Summer, an offer was made to all the contract (but not core) FO's of the availability of 50% or 80% roster (or even periods of unpaid leave) over the Winter, there was no mention that, if no-one took it ( & most thought, very reasonably "better to sit at home on 100% salary & do less. . . . . well, you would ! ) the next stage would be enforced unpaid leave.
In this instance, the pilots have stepped up to the plate & several individuals have had the pain reduced ( a bit at least)
This is a very heartening development, and bodes well for the next stage of our current struggle to avoid Ryanairisation (Oh, in my humble opinion of course)
The agencies PARC & ARPI have been advised that their services will not be required after the middle of the year, the 3rd stoogie (Confair) will not continue in 2015. Pilots hired through Confair have been given the joyous news that the company would like them to be employed (either permanently or as Contractors , depending on how long they have been in the company) through an affiliate of a "shipping agency" (looking at the shipping industry doesn't that sound promising
) whose aviation credentials thus far seem to mainly involve the "employment" of our USA based 787 cabin crew. With 1month & 1 day to go until termination with Confair no-one has been presented with a Contract for perusal, merely a "half-promise" that conditions will remain the same (why oh why would we not believe them. . . . . . do you want a list from the last 2 years ? ? ) In the meantime, at least 80% of Spanish based pilots have signed up to SEPLA & a request made to NAS for recognition. . . the response ? to pass it on to NAR (Norwegian Air Resources) who, in spite of being the future employers in Spain via NAR ES have decided to play the evasive trick "well, we don't employ you" . . .EXCUSE ME ? "we only provide you to NAS" . . .Oh yeah ? so NAS sent the request to you, but it isn't your Dept ? Ah OK , that is very clear, is this what we call "passing the buck" perhaps, NAS say "it isn't us" & you say " Nah not us either"
A recent second communication to NAS after the news that we would be expected to change agency awaits a response, & in the meantime we have the news that recently recruited Cadets, who were given LGW base, appear to be looking at the rather expensive luxury of providing their own accommodation/transport in Oslo , where it looks like they will spend the 1st 6mths of their time in NAS for Line Training ( & no doubt the rest of the Summer) to keep "Core" artificially small . . . just like all the guys from last year who joined from Ryanair expecting a Contract base, and instead found themselves on a temporary Scandi contract with all the attendant expenses & unforeseen (at least by them ) tax responsibilities . . . they were almost as happy as those that joined before them with the promise of rapid command (which has now migrated to Q4 2015/ Q1 2016 at earliest.)
Welcome aboard the "Happy Ship"
at least we take a little bit of care of each other, even if our employer doesn't seem to wish to.Edited to add (as the Mods saw fit to remove my post from the main Norwegian thread) we now await with baited breath the "permanent contract".
It has been vaguely stated that conditions will be "very" similar to what we have as Contractors (as ever , the devil is in the detail) however, we have conflicting reports from different Spanish base meetings from colleagues who attended.
One thing that is certain however, is that the company is benchmarking Vueling when deciding the renumeration they wish to offer the Spanish Cabin Crew.
Should they wish to lower the bar to the same level for Flight Deck personnel this will surely spell the end of anyones desire to remain here.
Given the harm they have done to their reputation with this recent debacle, it will be very optimistic on their part indeed if they choose to score another "own goal" in such rapid succession,it is notable that the flood of applicants from RYR has already dried up (if not indeed reversed as per the "rumours")
The only thing that may give them the courage to try such tactics would be the fact that net expansion for next year is very low, before ramping up in 2016, maybe they do indeed feel like giving it a punt. . . if so, the training Dept can cancel that "quiet" year they were looking forward to.
Last edited by captplaystation; 30th Nov 2014 at 08:50.
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Those contractors agencies are the EBOLA equivalent in the Civil aviation jobs. It really should be banned from the industry. Pilots, cabin crews and engineers should be directly employed by their airline company with a proper contract.
A couple of weeks ago, Sat Nov 15th I think, in Daily Telegraph there was an article reporting on comments by a government minister. i've forgotten the name of the sports retail company, but he was scathing in his criticism of the company policy to have so many workers on zero-hour contracts. He said that a large successful profit making company should not be using such contracts in 21st century. It was unacceptable to have so many front-line workers with no protection of their rights, no regular salary, no pension contributions, no NI payments etc. He called for a review of such contracts in todays workplace.
Sound familiar. If people opened their mouths they might find they have a friend in high places.
A couple of weeks ago, Sat Nov 15th I think, in Daily Telegraph there was an article reporting on comments by a government minister. i've forgotten the name of the sports retail company, but he was scathing in his criticism of the company policy to have so many workers on zero-hour contracts. He said that a large successful profit making company should not be using such contracts in 21st century. It was unacceptable to have so many front-line workers with no protection of their rights, no regular salary, no pension contributions, no NI payments etc. He called for a review of such contracts in todays workplace.
Sound familiar. If people opened their mouths they might find they have a friend in high places.
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According to an ex RYR colleague, the Spanish authorities only allow " contractors" to work for a period of 2 years in this status..if NAS want to continue with these " contractors" one would presume they have to either: Have perm employment or move to bases outside of Spain..
Given many will reach the 2 year benchmark by Jan 2015 and the perm contracts are not likely to be on the table until end 2015, it would appear a " void" is on the horizon..?
Given many will reach the 2 year benchmark by Jan 2015 and the perm contracts are not likely to be on the table until end 2015, it would appear a " void" is on the horizon..?
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RAT 5
Norwegian pilot contractors are salaried not on zero hour contracts.
Avenger
The last NAS info stated that all Spanish pilots working for contractors in Spain would be offered perm contracts in the 1st quarter of 2015 and that the terms would not be less than currently offered.......still messy thou
Avenger
The last NAS info stated that all Spanish pilots working for contractors in Spain would be offered perm contracts in the 1st quarter of 2015 and that the terms would not be less than currently offered.......still messy thou
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LNIDA, for now they are saying only AGP based pilots , & no later than end of 1st quarter 2015, and , half promises don't seem to count for much anymore . . ask the numerous people unhappy with what was "half-promised" at interview in the post Bjorn H era , including , but not limited to , Core position (not permanent employment "Core position") early command assessment, basings, etc etc. . . . If you wish to believe "half-promises" & phrases like "will be very similar to", "not different/less than" etc, Good Luck 
like many others, I remember the HEL fiasco & would prefer to see "the colour of the money" (I.E a draft contract, surely not that difficult to produce ) before waving the celebratory flags here.
like many others, I remember the HEL fiasco & would prefer to see "the colour of the money" (I.E a draft contract, surely not that difficult to produce ) before waving the celebratory flags here.
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They have (had) zero power to change anything!
Ah poor didums ! Actually no not so poor and not without the power of choice despite all the navel gazing about Western economies.
How did they get £120k debts in the first place? Selling big issue?
Whilst the regulators, big flight schools, pilot shortage journos and loco managers and the likes of BALPA have the largest responsibility, the self funded cadets share some of the blame game for being taken in by the former.
Now you either have to have 3000h heavy type with 500h recency on exact model of aircraft or 150000usd to spend on an MPL.
The sensible middle ground/apprentiship route has become a wasteland. Those from non heavy Mil backgrounds, GA and commuter/tp airlines are ignored with predictable results for all concerned.
How did they get £120k debts in the first place? Selling big issue?
Whilst the regulators, big flight schools, pilot shortage journos and loco managers and the likes of BALPA have the largest responsibility, the self funded cadets share some of the blame game for being taken in by the former.
Now you either have to have 3000h heavy type with 500h recency on exact model of aircraft or 150000usd to spend on an MPL.
The sensible middle ground/apprentiship route has become a wasteland. Those from non heavy Mil backgrounds, GA and commuter/tp airlines are ignored with predictable results for all concerned.
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Incorrect CPT play
Read your latest info fro the resources department more carefully CPT-play....
Spanish based Norwegian pilots will transfer to permanent employment after 2 years with company... As per local Spanish law... So, also pilots at other (than agp) Spanish bases will transfer from contract employment to permanent employment, when they reach the 2 years, and several will transfer 01/01/15...
All training staff will also transfer to permanent employment as required by the NCAA.
Spanish based Norwegian pilots will transfer to permanent employment after 2 years with company... As per local Spanish law... So, also pilots at other (than agp) Spanish bases will transfer from contract employment to permanent employment, when they reach the 2 years, and several will transfer 01/01/15...
All training staff will also transfer to permanent employment as required by the NCAA.
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You may believe what you wish. . . . the trainers etc have recently been told they will be given a new contract "within days". . .the clock is ticking, the email I refer to said it would happen within the 1st quarter, anyhow, nobody has seen the "permanent contract" so, will we smile or cry when we see it ? what is your prognosis ?
A large percentage of pilots are "out of contract" at the end of this month, their efforts to "regularise" their situation by joining ARPI has been deemed impossible by NAS (mainly because ARPI appeared to be willing to communicate with the Unions I could imagine) so, we are all sitting waiting to see what the new "favourite kid on the block" can come up with. I don't know how high your expectations are, but flying too high can melt the wax holding your wings together.
A large percentage of pilots are "out of contract" at the end of this month, their efforts to "regularise" their situation by joining ARPI has been deemed impossible by NAS (mainly because ARPI appeared to be willing to communicate with the Unions I could imagine) so, we are all sitting waiting to see what the new "favourite kid on the block" can come up with. I don't know how high your expectations are, but flying too high can melt the wax holding your wings together.
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Captainplaystation
I understand your cynicism & doubtless there will be more cock ups ahead, of the two main contractors Arpi & Confair the latter never really committed to tidying up its act as required by NAS, the first and only time Confair deducted income tax at source was November 2014 payroll, so something had to change. OSM's first communication had the polish and pre thought of a turd, it was just let go....
The 60 layoffs now much reduced in scope was in part down to a Spanish ticketing issue, more accurately Norwegian were ready this winter to go with mainland flights to the Canaries, until someone asked how they were going to deal with the residents 50% ticket discount between the Islands and mainland, the good people of Noggy land were apparently unaware of it!!!! if you doubt it ask your self where most of the new pilots (60) were based??
Icarus never got off the ground, never mind too near the Sun, although i do like the line of "overcome by the giddiness that flying lent him" sounds like a pay to fly scheme!! mind you spending more than a week on Crete and I would be flapping my arms in the vain hope of getting away from there.
The 60 layoffs now much reduced in scope was in part down to a Spanish ticketing issue, more accurately Norwegian were ready this winter to go with mainland flights to the Canaries, until someone asked how they were going to deal with the residents 50% ticket discount between the Islands and mainland, the good people of Noggy land were apparently unaware of it!!!! if you doubt it ask your self where most of the new pilots (60) were based??
Icarus never got off the ground, never mind too near the Sun, although i do like the line of "overcome by the giddiness that flying lent him" sounds like a pay to fly scheme!! mind you spending more than a week on Crete and I would be flapping my arms in the vain hope of getting away from there.
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A bit of humour is certainly required to deal with this whole scenario, we will see however if any serious info is imparted this day in LGW.
One very important fact to be resolved however is that OSM seem to be acting under the miscomprehension that they may be involved in permanent contracts in bases that have been open for 36mths. It would be good if it was pointed out to them that this is in clear contravention of the agreement between NAS & the NPU.
The very 1st Captain I flew with way back in 1984 had been around the block ( & then some) he asked me on one of our 1st trips together what qualities I thought were needed for a career in aviation. . . . . my suggestions were nowhere near the mark.
As he pointed out to me, the one quality required was "resilience", as he told me all those years ago, you are going to spend your entire career being expected to eat ****, so, if you can't let that wash over you like soft caribbean waves don't stay in this industry . . . how right he was.
One very important fact to be resolved however is that OSM seem to be acting under the miscomprehension that they may be involved in permanent contracts in bases that have been open for 36mths. It would be good if it was pointed out to them that this is in clear contravention of the agreement between NAS & the NPU.
The very 1st Captain I flew with way back in 1984 had been around the block ( & then some) he asked me on one of our 1st trips together what qualities I thought were needed for a career in aviation. . . . . my suggestions were nowhere near the mark.
As he pointed out to me, the one quality required was "resilience", as he told me all those years ago, you are going to spend your entire career being expected to eat ****, so, if you can't let that wash over you like soft caribbean waves don't stay in this industry . . . how right he was.
Stockholm to Ulan Bator on the 737 max as seen on a Norwegian presentation should be a fun trip! Night Delhi and return or more probably the other way around after minimum rest should also be a good laugh.
