Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
BitMoreRightRudder,
Nail hit firmly on head!!!
There are a very small minority on both sides of the flight deck door who would appear not to want to 'move on'.
I believe firmly that the VAST majority of lagacy crew are professional and decent individuals who take pride in doing a good job and who come across as thoroughly pleasant human beings. The fact that all too often they wish to spend a quiet evening in their hotel rooms, rather than coming out for a meal, is their choice. Often the individuals are mothers, who need a wee bit of time to themselves. Others may be very tight on cash and many other valid reasons as well.
I do not judge just because someone does not want to 'socialise' or because they wish to spend their evening with a friend. I still try to be inclusive and invite anyone and everyone to join us (flight crew) and when they do we know, and they find out, that we can have a very enjoyable evening.
I think normal_nigel was expressing frustration at the constant denial expressed by certain individuals on different forums. I know quite a few colleagues who 'feel' in a similar way, but are probably a bit more tactful in when and if they express their feelings.
The main bit of info that NEVER ceases to surprise me is why the more militant members in bassa can feel let down by a group of people who they have continually insulted, villified, lied-about, taunted etc etc etc over decades. I NEVER hear BALPA reps insulting bassa as a body of people. Any less flattering comments are ONLY directed at the individuals who constantly seek to stir up trouble and continue the 'one-way' hatred that keeps being fed on a regular basis.
It really is time to move on. We do different jobs and have different attributes to do these jobs. Nearly all of us come to work and would like to enjoy it and that seems to be the case more and more.
Time for the decent people, which is 99% from both sides of the flight deck door, to tell the stirrers and those who constantly seek to encourage division to shut up and stop their meddling.
Come on folks - we can ALL play our part in stopping the animosity!!!
Nail hit firmly on head!!!
There are a very small minority on both sides of the flight deck door who would appear not to want to 'move on'.
I believe firmly that the VAST majority of lagacy crew are professional and decent individuals who take pride in doing a good job and who come across as thoroughly pleasant human beings. The fact that all too often they wish to spend a quiet evening in their hotel rooms, rather than coming out for a meal, is their choice. Often the individuals are mothers, who need a wee bit of time to themselves. Others may be very tight on cash and many other valid reasons as well.
I do not judge just because someone does not want to 'socialise' or because they wish to spend their evening with a friend. I still try to be inclusive and invite anyone and everyone to join us (flight crew) and when they do we know, and they find out, that we can have a very enjoyable evening.
I think normal_nigel was expressing frustration at the constant denial expressed by certain individuals on different forums. I know quite a few colleagues who 'feel' in a similar way, but are probably a bit more tactful in when and if they express their feelings.
The main bit of info that NEVER ceases to surprise me is why the more militant members in bassa can feel let down by a group of people who they have continually insulted, villified, lied-about, taunted etc etc etc over decades. I NEVER hear BALPA reps insulting bassa as a body of people. Any less flattering comments are ONLY directed at the individuals who constantly seek to stir up trouble and continue the 'one-way' hatred that keeps being fed on a regular basis.
It really is time to move on. We do different jobs and have different attributes to do these jobs. Nearly all of us come to work and would like to enjoy it and that seems to be the case more and more.
Time for the decent people, which is 99% from both sides of the flight deck door, to tell the stirrers and those who constantly seek to encourage division to shut up and stop their meddling.
Come on folks - we can ALL play our part in stopping the animosity!!!
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The simple fact is that here, on a public, open forum those reading generally never got to see the disgusting, vile, slanderous postings of the closed BASSA forum or CREWFORUM.
Many of which were the reason for the BASSA forum being closed down due to Libel proceedings. A process that BASSA/Unite lost.
Just a thought.
Back to the thread.
Many of which were the reason for the BASSA forum being closed down due to Libel proceedings. A process that BASSA/Unite lost.
Just a thought.
Back to the thread.
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Iberia job cut..
@ Wirbelsturm, many of which were quite simply replies/retorts to some of the disgusting, vile, slanderous postings made by some BA flight crew on other forums.
I wonder how many people on this public, open forum were aware if that, or indeed had the opportunity to read them?
Just a thought.
Back to the thread.
I wonder how many people on this public, open forum were aware if that, or indeed had the opportunity to read them?
Just a thought.
Back to the thread.
Last edited by gladrags; 11th Mar 2013 at 20:48.
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Gladrags,
No they weren't, they were drivel and slander, nothing more, many aimed at a single individual who was labelled by BASSA. Where were the posts by pilots? Has the BALPA site been withdrawn due to slander and legal action? Has there been Libel action against such sites?
Simple answer... No.
The number of vitriolic, abusive and vile comments posted on the BASSA forum and Crewforum that had no basis in fact was excessive, so much so that the courts demanded that the BASSA site was pulled and recorded. Recordings of the threads that were, conveniently, lost by the same web master that was found guilty of perverting the PCCC website. How bizarre?
The only cases that came from the flight deck, I seem to remember, was stupid postings on Facebook. That was dealt with and the individuals concerned should have known better. The stupid minority from 3000 was far less than the vitriolic minority, and continuing minority, from 16000 who can't or won't just 'let it go'. If you know of any other forums then, please, let us know. The messages posted here were simply those that were aghast at the incompetence shown by BASSA and the subsequent lack of guidance given to the BASSA members.
As said, back to the thread, it is interesting to see that IAG is agreeing to 'non binding' arbitration as the Spanish Government is aiming to stem further job losses. Unfortunately this will preclude a loss of terms I am sure. Remember that the Spanish Government had to approve the IAG merger so they have an active interest in keeping IAG/IB afloat.
P.S. It's not twitt3r, sorry (had to do that or Pprune inserts 'Pprune' instead, sorry).
No they weren't, they were drivel and slander, nothing more, many aimed at a single individual who was labelled by BASSA. Where were the posts by pilots? Has the BALPA site been withdrawn due to slander and legal action? Has there been Libel action against such sites?
Simple answer... No.
The number of vitriolic, abusive and vile comments posted on the BASSA forum and Crewforum that had no basis in fact was excessive, so much so that the courts demanded that the BASSA site was pulled and recorded. Recordings of the threads that were, conveniently, lost by the same web master that was found guilty of perverting the PCCC website. How bizarre?
The only cases that came from the flight deck, I seem to remember, was stupid postings on Facebook. That was dealt with and the individuals concerned should have known better. The stupid minority from 3000 was far less than the vitriolic minority, and continuing minority, from 16000 who can't or won't just 'let it go'. If you know of any other forums then, please, let us know. The messages posted here were simply those that were aghast at the incompetence shown by BASSA and the subsequent lack of guidance given to the BASSA members.
As said, back to the thread, it is interesting to see that IAG is agreeing to 'non binding' arbitration as the Spanish Government is aiming to stem further job losses. Unfortunately this will preclude a loss of terms I am sure. Remember that the Spanish Government had to approve the IAG merger so they have an active interest in keeping IAG/IB afloat.
P.S. It's not twitt3r, sorry (had to do that or Pprune inserts 'Pprune' instead, sorry).
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 11th Mar 2013 at 22:26.
Where were the posts by pilots?
Last edited by wiggy; 12th Mar 2013 at 05:45.
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Good question. The only two places I can think of are the BALPA forum and the BA pilot's forum, both of which are password protected and on neither of which can I recall anything close to "disgusting, vile, slanderous".
Many of which were the reason for the BASSA forum being closed down due to Libel proceedings. A process that BASSA/Unite lost.
And you'll be delighted to know BASSA/Unite paid absolutely no money whatsoever in out of court settlements to any individual in the forum case. The hierarchy actually would have preferred a high profile case to be put into the public domain to show exactly what went on and to hi light the injustice of the whole episode, purely for those who paid a massive price and are not with us anymore. Sadly we'll now have to wait until 2014.
So I'd be grateful Wirby if you'd give us your Wirbyworld legally tainted view as to how BASSA/UNITE lost the case - more clap trap I presume.
Enough from me, I'm tired of going around the houses
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 12th Mar 2013 at 07:00.
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Probably just as bad as 26.1. I've never said Cabin Crew haven't said or done wrong - I'm just hi lighting that equally pilots have said and done wrong, something that many on here are in denial over. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Just move on and let it go - it's over!
Just move on and let it go - it's over!
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Just move on and let it go - it's over!
I've said it before, but here goes again, why do you bother with this troll?
Wasn't it Nightmare On Elm Street where the monster became powerless and disappeared when his victims simply ignored him?
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Regarding the BASSA forum, there was no court order to 'close it down', just an order for some names to be released
If the posts were so innocent and 'just replies' to the nasty pilots then surely BASSA would have been happy to have them out in the open. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. Many of the posts were openly vindictive and definitely slanderous/libellous.
At least the target of your ire had the courage to take on a bullying Union and donated ALL of the monies settled to Help for Heroes. Then posted the thank you letter from Help for Heroes on the BALPA forum for all to see.
I just want readers to see exactly what sort of actions you are defending Wonker and the damage, heartache and pain that your advice to your own members brings.
Back to work.
Enjoy.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 12th Mar 2013 at 08:07.
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donated ALL of the monies settled to Help for Heroes.
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Watersidewonker
The subject of this thread is Iberia to loose 4500 jobs & 25 airframes
Ths is a big issue in a country that is on its knees with a financial crisis that has only brushed past the UK and will result in those who loose their jobs not able to find employment in the foreseeable future.
I think that this subject deserves some serious and thoughtful discussion, I know that due to the involvement of IAG there is a BA connection to this that can't be ignored and so some comment from the BA side is appropriate.
Your contribution to this serious discution is to hijack the thread and try to make it all about you narrow outdated self interest . Do you not understand that while you are having a "the nasty pilot told me to do this or that" rant in your very cushy world 4500 people in Iberia are wondering how they will pay next months mortgage or put shoes on their children's feet.
When I balance the plight of the those at Iberia who will loose their jobs and the posts above from you I can only determin that your views are a pathetic rant from someone who is so wrapped up in their own self importance that they can't see how insular and detached from reality they have become.
Ths is a big issue in a country that is on its knees with a financial crisis that has only brushed past the UK and will result in those who loose their jobs not able to find employment in the foreseeable future.
I think that this subject deserves some serious and thoughtful discussion, I know that due to the involvement of IAG there is a BA connection to this that can't be ignored and so some comment from the BA side is appropriate.
Your contribution to this serious discution is to hijack the thread and try to make it all about you narrow outdated self interest . Do you not understand that while you are having a "the nasty pilot told me to do this or that" rant in your very cushy world 4500 people in Iberia are wondering how they will pay next months mortgage or put shoes on their children's feet.
When I balance the plight of the those at Iberia who will loose their jobs and the posts above from you I can only determin that your views are a pathetic rant from someone who is so wrapped up in their own self importance that they can't see how insular and detached from reality they have become.
Last edited by A and C; 12th Mar 2013 at 09:08.
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A and C,
Good post. I will abide by it also, I'm a bit bored of countering certain constant accusations that are fact less and baseless anyway.
Only discussion about Iberia.
I certainly wouldn't agree that the financial crisis has 'brushed past' the UK. The UK is running a massive deficit that is going to take a very long time to pay down. The difference lies in the GDP of the countries involved and their willingness to accept the changes required to weather the storm.
The fact that BA is still in a position to make a profit is thanks to many, many factors, not least but not only because of restructuring and changes to the pay and conditions. The changing of the market, the merging of major carriers and the failure of others have led to total changes throughout the airline business.
Iberia must change. Of that there is no doubt. The problem is that the change is going to seem a 'massive attack' as there has been no gradual change over the past 2 decades. Non binding arbitration will, in my opinion, focus on changes to terms and conditions in order to preserve jobs, something that is desperately needed in Spain at the moment.
Good post. I will abide by it also, I'm a bit bored of countering certain constant accusations that are fact less and baseless anyway.
Only discussion about Iberia.
a financial crisis that has only brushed past the UK
The fact that BA is still in a position to make a profit is thanks to many, many factors, not least but not only because of restructuring and changes to the pay and conditions. The changing of the market, the merging of major carriers and the failure of others have led to total changes throughout the airline business.
Iberia must change. Of that there is no doubt. The problem is that the change is going to seem a 'massive attack' as there has been no gradual change over the past 2 decades. Non binding arbitration will, in my opinion, focus on changes to terms and conditions in order to preserve jobs, something that is desperately needed in Spain at the moment.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 12th Mar 2013 at 08:56.
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A&C it does get back on track until some sky driver troll starts slating cabin crew. It's my right to come back and defend them whenever this happens.
I will follow Wirby and not post unless it's to defend CC from inflammatory lies posted.
I will follow Wirby and not post unless it's to defend CC from inflammatory lies posted.
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 12th Mar 2013 at 08:50.
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-wirbelsturm
The comment about the financial crisis only brushing past the UK is a comparative one with the affects that it is having in Spain not a dismissal of the problems in the UK.
A short walk through the streets of any major Spanish city will show you a far bleaker picture that I have seen in the UK, the result of this is that the chances of a worker laid of by Iberia finding employment are very much lower than someone in the UK who finds themselfs out of work.
I think we are of the same mind about the need to restructure Iberia, I know it was a long time and a lot of inappropriate ranting ago but please take a look at post # 3 on this thread.
Watersidewonker
I respect my fellow workers for their hard work and professionalism and I find that on the whole that respect is returned, It is my opinion that that your rhetoric and disrespect only undermines any case that you might have by giving the impression that you are an intrenched bigot.
A short walk through the streets of any major Spanish city will show you a far bleaker picture that I have seen in the UK, the result of this is that the chances of a worker laid of by Iberia finding employment are very much lower than someone in the UK who finds themselfs out of work.
I think we are of the same mind about the need to restructure Iberia, I know it was a long time and a lot of inappropriate ranting ago but please take a look at post # 3 on this thread.
Watersidewonker
I respect my fellow workers for their hard work and professionalism and I find that on the whole that respect is returned, It is my opinion that that your rhetoric and disrespect only undermines any case that you might have by giving the impression that you are an intrenched bigot.
Last edited by A and C; 12th Mar 2013 at 09:33.
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I agree that's why I believe that arbitration will primarily focus on reducing redundancies.
For this to happen something else must give. The Spanish Government had to sanction the merger of IB/BA into IAG and therefore must take some responsibility when it comes to the need for cost cutting.
The Iberian peninsula has been terribly hit by the financial crisis perhaps as neither Spain nor Portugal had any crash protection when the housing boom collapsed.
It will be difficult days ahead.
For this to happen something else must give. The Spanish Government had to sanction the merger of IB/BA into IAG and therefore must take some responsibility when it comes to the need for cost cutting.
The Iberian peninsula has been terribly hit by the financial crisis perhaps as neither Spain nor Portugal had any crash protection when the housing boom collapsed.
It will be difficult days ahead.
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I agree that's why I believe that arbitration will primarily focus on reducing redundancies.
Careful wonker, your pathological hatred is coming out again. You should get that seen to.
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By all the hatred you've dished out
No hatred here Wonker. It's only business.
or as someone on another forum calls us subordinates.
Noun:
A person under the authority or control of another within an organization.
And your point is?
And increasing redundancy payments for those leaving the business.
Do keep up.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 12th Mar 2013 at 11:03.
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From El Pais:
Seems there is movement ahead.
A reduction in the numbers of redundancies, a reduction in the pay cuts. An increase from 20 to 35 days per year redundancy package and a reduction in the savings required by a specific timeline.
Still going to be difficult times but certainly achievable.
I'm not sure about 'guaranteeing' no further cuts into the future though. I don't think they will be able to give or maintain such guarantees.
The leaders of labor unions representing the majority of workers at Iberia have accepted the compromise proposals put forward by a mediator on the company’s restructuring plan, promising an end to strike action that has seen hundreds of flights canceled since last month, labor sources said Monday.
Union leaders are due to put the proposals of the mediator, labor law expert Gregorio Tudela, to an assembly on Tuesday. They will then meet with Tudela, a professor at the Autonomous University of Madrid (UAM), to formally convey the decision.
On Sunday, the management of Iberia’s parent company, International Airline Group (IAG), accepted Tudela’s proposals, which reduce the number of job cuts from 3,807 to 3,141, some 19 percent of Iberia’s workforce. Severance pay would be raised to 35 days’ wages for every year worked from the proposal of the legal minimum of 20 days. Tudela suggested that Iberia avail itself of a labor-reduction plan (ERE) filed in 2001 that is still valid and includes early retirement and voluntary redundancy packages.
Tudela also recommended wage cuts of seven percent for ground staff and 14 percent for cabin crew and pilots, compared with reductions sought by Iberia’s management of between 25 and 35 percent, and a wage freeze through to 2015.
The stance of the airline pilots’ union SEPLA in response to Tudela’s proposals is still not clear. SEPLA chairman Justo Peral said the union’s statutes require a period of 15 days to call an assembly to vote on the compromise deal.
Cabin crew and ground staff held a five-day stoppage last month to protest the layoffs and were joined by the carrier’s pilots in another five-day strike last week. Labor unions had called a further five-day stoppage for the period March 18-22.
Union leaders are due to put the proposals of the mediator, labor law expert Gregorio Tudela, to an assembly on Tuesday. They will then meet with Tudela, a professor at the Autonomous University of Madrid (UAM), to formally convey the decision.
On Sunday, the management of Iberia’s parent company, International Airline Group (IAG), accepted Tudela’s proposals, which reduce the number of job cuts from 3,807 to 3,141, some 19 percent of Iberia’s workforce. Severance pay would be raised to 35 days’ wages for every year worked from the proposal of the legal minimum of 20 days. Tudela suggested that Iberia avail itself of a labor-reduction plan (ERE) filed in 2001 that is still valid and includes early retirement and voluntary redundancy packages.
Tudela also recommended wage cuts of seven percent for ground staff and 14 percent for cabin crew and pilots, compared with reductions sought by Iberia’s management of between 25 and 35 percent, and a wage freeze through to 2015.
The stance of the airline pilots’ union SEPLA in response to Tudela’s proposals is still not clear. SEPLA chairman Justo Peral said the union’s statutes require a period of 15 days to call an assembly to vote on the compromise deal.
Cabin crew and ground staff held a five-day stoppage last month to protest the layoffs and were joined by the carrier’s pilots in another five-day strike last week. Labor unions had called a further five-day stoppage for the period March 18-22.
A reduction in the numbers of redundancies, a reduction in the pay cuts. An increase from 20 to 35 days per year redundancy package and a reduction in the savings required by a specific timeline.
Still going to be difficult times but certainly achievable.
I'm not sure about 'guaranteeing' no further cuts into the future though. I don't think they will be able to give or maintain such guarantees.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 12th Mar 2013 at 14:04.