Just what are pilots worth then?
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Just what are pilots worth then?
Every Thread and Post complains about conditions/hours/pay.
Just what would be the (sensible) ideal salary/income?
In comparison:
A qualified professional of around 35 years of age in my industry (property/construction) would expect to earn around £35,000 pa plus a car, pension, health and work a basic 39 hours per week.
A 50 year old, maybe a partner, would be earning around £60,000 to £70,000 pa (at least) with the above benefits, although with an expense account and probably longer hours.
Take the longer hours for an airline pilot, the unsocial hours of work and the risk, then a First Officer aged 35 working a minimum of 55 hours a week should be earning approximately £49,000 pa with benefits, but without any allowance for unsocial hours and risk (loss of licence, operating environment and the like).
A Captain proportionally more.
On the face of it, like for like, it does not seem that pilots are badly paid - if they follow the age/experience profile.
Any comments?
SITW
Just what would be the (sensible) ideal salary/income?
In comparison:
A qualified professional of around 35 years of age in my industry (property/construction) would expect to earn around £35,000 pa plus a car, pension, health and work a basic 39 hours per week.
A 50 year old, maybe a partner, would be earning around £60,000 to £70,000 pa (at least) with the above benefits, although with an expense account and probably longer hours.
Take the longer hours for an airline pilot, the unsocial hours of work and the risk, then a First Officer aged 35 working a minimum of 55 hours a week should be earning approximately £49,000 pa with benefits, but without any allowance for unsocial hours and risk (loss of licence, operating environment and the like).
A Captain proportionally more.
On the face of it, like for like, it does not seem that pilots are badly paid - if they follow the age/experience profile.
Any comments?
SITW
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How much are pilots worth
In my view pilots are worth probably more than they are paid. They certainly should not be on the receiving end of pay and condition cuts, which seems to be happening everywhere.
How do I justify the above, well, they are responsible for a lot of £ / $ worth of kit - £165 Million for a 777, literally hundreds of passengers and fellow crew (say $1million / head), day in day out, all weathers / times / locations. It's when (rarely) there is a problem/event when their skill and experience is really needed. THAT is the "value for money" moment.
Erode terms and conditions, devalue the job, dissinterest the best, pay peanuts (get monkeys), and you are on an instant downward slope.
Lets put it another way. If I owned a fleet of $165million aircraft, I would DEMAND the best trained and experienced people up-front, and reward them accordingly.
Unfortunatley, it seems that reading this forum, Willie Wonka at BA, Emirates and other airline managements think differently these days.
Flying Lid
How do I justify the above, well, they are responsible for a lot of £ / $ worth of kit - £165 Million for a 777, literally hundreds of passengers and fellow crew (say $1million / head), day in day out, all weathers / times / locations. It's when (rarely) there is a problem/event when their skill and experience is really needed. THAT is the "value for money" moment.
Erode terms and conditions, devalue the job, dissinterest the best, pay peanuts (get monkeys), and you are on an instant downward slope.
Lets put it another way. If I owned a fleet of $165million aircraft, I would DEMAND the best trained and experienced people up-front, and reward them accordingly.
Unfortunatley, it seems that reading this forum, Willie Wonka at BA, Emirates and other airline managements think differently these days.
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SITW
I have to agree with you there.
Pilots as a collective are by far the moaniest, spineless and self interested jobsworths i have ever met. What i find particularly entertaining is this sudden blame culture on SSTR's as if they have only just been invented, in reality they have been around for years and years. When they first emerged all the ones in jobs couldnt of cared less as it didnt effect THEM, now thats its starting to effect them they are suddenly kicking up a fuss about it.
I reckon that around 90% of pilots on this forum(including me), have had their part to play in the downfall of this profession one way or another.
Most of my friends who've just started grad jobs are on around 24k a year and are bloody well thankful for that. They are on 40 hour contracts and have to do a hell of a lot of work each night just to keep up, some around 2 hours each night. Hearing some experienced captains on 90k-ish moaning about crew food and general conditions etc just doesnt rub well with me im afraid.
What i found especially entertaining was the recent Ryanair Panorama where a poor captain being interviewed complained about having to turn up 15 minutes early each morning just to get the job done, my heart bled.
How many jobs are there that are paid 30k plus where you leave your work behind with you at the end of the day, I personally dont know any. Yes flying is a very stressful job, however it is very short term stress; Compared to say other jobs in the 30k plus region where you never leave your work behind.
Im afraid that pilots have had it good for too long(in this country at least), and it truly saddens me to say this. This countries run by bean counters and will be for the foreseeable future.
I have to agree with you there.
Pilots as a collective are by far the moaniest, spineless and self interested jobsworths i have ever met. What i find particularly entertaining is this sudden blame culture on SSTR's as if they have only just been invented, in reality they have been around for years and years. When they first emerged all the ones in jobs couldnt of cared less as it didnt effect THEM, now thats its starting to effect them they are suddenly kicking up a fuss about it.
I reckon that around 90% of pilots on this forum(including me), have had their part to play in the downfall of this profession one way or another.
Most of my friends who've just started grad jobs are on around 24k a year and are bloody well thankful for that. They are on 40 hour contracts and have to do a hell of a lot of work each night just to keep up, some around 2 hours each night. Hearing some experienced captains on 90k-ish moaning about crew food and general conditions etc just doesnt rub well with me im afraid.
What i found especially entertaining was the recent Ryanair Panorama where a poor captain being interviewed complained about having to turn up 15 minutes early each morning just to get the job done, my heart bled.
How many jobs are there that are paid 30k plus where you leave your work behind with you at the end of the day, I personally dont know any. Yes flying is a very stressful job, however it is very short term stress; Compared to say other jobs in the 30k plus region where you never leave your work behind.
Im afraid that pilots have had it good for too long(in this country at least), and it truly saddens me to say this. This countries run by bean counters and will be for the foreseeable future.
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When they first emerged all the ones in jobs couldnt of (sic) cared less as it didnt effect (sic) THEM, now thats its starting to effect (sic) them they are suddenly kicking up a fuss about it.
Dangerous things, generalisations. I've been banging on about SSTRs for about fifteen years.
Tell me though. If the old sweats compalined about them, en masse, tomorrow would it stop the companies selling any? If newbies stopped buying them tomorrow how many TRs would get sold?
Supply and demand old fruit. We've been here many times before.
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£120,000 for two flight deck per year soley responsible for safety of the aircraft in flight. 888000 pax per year carried by this crew, based on 50 sectors a month .
carrying 148 pax equates to a value of £1.35 per life carried
Thats probably a figure people would give more thought.
carrying 148 pax equates to a value of £1.35 per life carried
Thats probably a figure people would give more thought.
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It will be interesting to see what Skyhigh86 has to say 10 years down the line. He sounds like any manager's wet dream. The youth today.
Last edited by ReallyAnnoyed; 9th Nov 2009 at 03:21. Reason: Spelling
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Yes its a very fair point you make Flintstone and fair play to you for sticking to your guns with regards to SSTR's fromthe outset.
Lets not forget who sets up some of these companies though.
I refer to one scheme in particular run in conjunction with BMI, around 37K with a nigh on zero chance of landing a job
. Correct me if im wrong but i believe that was set up by a training captain. Who clearly believed they could jump on the newbie bank wagon and make a quick buck, Shame on them.
This is a pandemic, of which i cant see a realisitic cure.
Lets not forget who sets up some of these companies though.
I refer to one scheme in particular run in conjunction with BMI, around 37K with a nigh on zero chance of landing a job
. Correct me if im wrong but i believe that was set up by a training captain. Who clearly believed they could jump on the newbie bank wagon and make a quick buck, Shame on them.This is a pandemic, of which i cant see a realisitic cure.
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Skyhigh68, if you really are an active commercial pilot, I must say I am disappointed at your attitude. You come across as immature and bereft of experience.
You may have a point about SSTR - I think the pilot workforce as a whole were rather slow on the uptake the consequences of this development, however what's happening now in companies like Ryanair is well beyond anything that was envisaged. Commercial pressures shouldn't result in ability to pay to be the deciding factor who sits in the RHS of an airliner - aptitude and attitude should.
You can't compare 'grad' jobs with that of a professional pilot. Very few other professions have to operate a delicate and complex asset in a dynamic environment. That asset is worth tens, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars, and is often filled with frangible human cargo, adding up to a multi-billion dollar insurance liability.
You have a wholly unrealistic view of the stresses involved this profession. Every day worked is a day when one's career is one the line. There's a spy in the cab in the form of flight data monitoring. A misjudged takeoff or landing can have career limiting consequences. This is a particular hazard when operating with inexperienced colleagues. The need to keep an acceptable level of fitness throughout one's career is another source of stress, particularly when one hits 40
Work simply isn't left behind at the workplace. That work can be at any time of the day, 365 days of the year - the roster rules one's life - and a day's work can exceed 12 hours. Implicate in the responsibly of being a commercial pilot is keeping up with the operational and technical developments within one's fleet and the company and beyond. Every 6 months a pilot must summit to a highly demanding checking and training regime. All of this reading is undertaken in an individual's 'leisure' time.
BTW, you missed the point entirely the Captain's point in the recent Panorama edition. Flight Time Limitations are law and are highly prescriptive. If an operator forces it's pilots to report early, it's breaking the law, plain and simple.
A piece of advice that will serve you well throughout your career: get the experience first before you start pontificating, not the other way round. Follow this and you'll not come unstuck.
Regards the original poster's point, our pilots earn between £50k - £150k, backed up with decent insurance & retirement provisions. I would say this is reasonable and not at all excessive when the unique challenges of this profession are taken into account.
You may have a point about SSTR - I think the pilot workforce as a whole were rather slow on the uptake the consequences of this development, however what's happening now in companies like Ryanair is well beyond anything that was envisaged. Commercial pressures shouldn't result in ability to pay to be the deciding factor who sits in the RHS of an airliner - aptitude and attitude should.
You can't compare 'grad' jobs with that of a professional pilot. Very few other professions have to operate a delicate and complex asset in a dynamic environment. That asset is worth tens, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars, and is often filled with frangible human cargo, adding up to a multi-billion dollar insurance liability.
You have a wholly unrealistic view of the stresses involved this profession. Every day worked is a day when one's career is one the line. There's a spy in the cab in the form of flight data monitoring. A misjudged takeoff or landing can have career limiting consequences. This is a particular hazard when operating with inexperienced colleagues. The need to keep an acceptable level of fitness throughout one's career is another source of stress, particularly when one hits 40
Work simply isn't left behind at the workplace. That work can be at any time of the day, 365 days of the year - the roster rules one's life - and a day's work can exceed 12 hours. Implicate in the responsibly of being a commercial pilot is keeping up with the operational and technical developments within one's fleet and the company and beyond. Every 6 months a pilot must summit to a highly demanding checking and training regime. All of this reading is undertaken in an individual's 'leisure' time.
BTW, you missed the point entirely the Captain's point in the recent Panorama edition. Flight Time Limitations are law and are highly prescriptive. If an operator forces it's pilots to report early, it's breaking the law, plain and simple.
A piece of advice that will serve you well throughout your career: get the experience first before you start pontificating, not the other way round. Follow this and you'll not come unstuck.
Regards the original poster's point, our pilots earn between £50k - £150k, backed up with decent insurance & retirement provisions. I would say this is reasonable and not at all excessive when the unique challenges of this profession are taken into account.
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Pilots are not paid enough
Highly responsible, professional, exhausting job deserves the recognition and respect it used to command before you could get paid more by managing a Mcdonald's restaurant than flying a blue and white 738
Highly responsible, professional, exhausting job deserves the recognition and respect it used to command before you could get paid more by managing a Mcdonald's restaurant than flying a blue and white 738
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Barden thank you for your very constructive and useful views.
Its very true at 23 i have a great deal to learn and recognise this. Compared to a lot of people on this forum i would be classed as inexperienced, i cant help this. I would be a very foolish person indeed to not take advice from people i look up to on a daily basis.
With regard to ReallyAnnoyed comments about my views changing in 10 years time, im absolutely sure they will and i welcome it. The "beauty" of youth should hopefully hold up for a few more years at least
With regards to maturity, would be a shame to judge me based on two postings. However im the one who put my hand up to be counted, so will just have to cope with the backlash.
Its a real shame the industries going this way, especially for my "era" who are hoping to see this job till 65
. Im not some masochist who takes great pleasure in seeing my career go down the sh*tter, its just that i can see both sides of the coin from a beancounters perspective. Aircraft are safer than ever, more reliable than ever and easier to operate than ever.
Thank you for your comments, i will take my leave now before im torn apart anymore
Its very true at 23 i have a great deal to learn and recognise this. Compared to a lot of people on this forum i would be classed as inexperienced, i cant help this. I would be a very foolish person indeed to not take advice from people i look up to on a daily basis.
With regard to ReallyAnnoyed comments about my views changing in 10 years time, im absolutely sure they will and i welcome it. The "beauty" of youth should hopefully hold up for a few more years at least
With regards to maturity, would be a shame to judge me based on two postings. However im the one who put my hand up to be counted, so will just have to cope with the backlash.
Its a real shame the industries going this way, especially for my "era" who are hoping to see this job till 65
. Im not some masochist who takes great pleasure in seeing my career go down the sh*tter, its just that i can see both sides of the coin from a beancounters perspective. Aircraft are safer than ever, more reliable than ever and easier to operate than ever. Thank you for your comments, i will take my leave now before im torn apart anymore
Think all employed as pilots, will look back at this period (accelerated by Ryanair), as a time of change.
Can I throw a spanner in the works? How much are captains of eg. QE2/large cruise ships paid?
I hate referring back to the UBIQUITOUS Ryanair, but you have to look at the MD's business plan to comprehend WHY t's and C's are going downhill, never to return...
Step into his shoes. 'He' thinks of you as 'drivers', that is it.
What you as FR employee's need to do is convince him that you need 'treating?' better than taxi drivers - this will not happen soon, as future employee's are still chomping at the bit to work for this airline-for free/pay him.
Can I throw a spanner in the works? How much are captains of eg. QE2/large cruise ships paid?
I hate referring back to the UBIQUITOUS Ryanair, but you have to look at the MD's business plan to comprehend WHY t's and C's are going downhill, never to return...
Step into his shoes. 'He' thinks of you as 'drivers', that is it.
What you as FR employee's need to do is convince him that you need 'treating?' better than taxi drivers - this will not happen soon, as future employee's are still chomping at the bit to work for this airline-for free/pay him.
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I guess the question 'How much are pilots worth'? , could be construed to ask 'how much are pilots willing to pay'?
I guess the accountants at BMI Baby wish they'd aplied that stategy.
I guess the accountants at BMI Baby wish they'd aplied that stategy.
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Rob
I'd expand that the reason that pilot's T&C's are going downhill is in fact a combination of management who have no comprehension of what we do each day - being of the opinion, I firmly believe, that 'modern aeroplanes fly themselves, that's what an autopilot is for' and as such wish to get us down to the lowest common denominator, and pilots who are willing to be walked over for the sake of shareholders reaping the rewards of their hard work - hard work which keeps thousands of lives save every year.
Obviously I know you're not trying to dumb down the piloting profession but I do enjoy preaching when the opportunity comes up!
I have to say that before I began flying, I had limited respect for unions. Having now seen the good they can do, and the comparison between those companies who don't have an organised pilot body (no guesses), the ONLY way that this industry can survive as a career is for pilots to start standing up for themselves.
Thanks to Ryanair, people have now think it actuallly costs 40 quid to get an aeroplane to Malaga with respectfully paid staff, and that's because the staff have failed to stand up for themselves. MOL and his sort can replace one pilot making a stand. Can he replace a few hundred? Or cope with the bad publicity? (Don't answer that last bit, I know the answer, annoyingly)
Train drivers did, in fact, once get paid well for their job. They failed to stand up for themselves where we have to succeed. And we have to succeed - I paid the best part of 90 grand for training, I don't intend to do this for a) less than 30 years and b) £20,000 a year.
And what do I think is repectable? Including flight pay, £45,000 year 1 for an F/O if we're paying for training ourselves, up to £60,000 at say year 6, and a captain, who is the man whose name is on the paper saying he's responsible for everything his crew do, £80,000 year one to £120,000 top-of-scale. More for training and standards. And a premium for long haul, which ruins your body clock, your home life and your admiration of a nice stay in a hotel.
I'm only jealous.
I'd expand that the reason that pilot's T&C's are going downhill is in fact a combination of management who have no comprehension of what we do each day - being of the opinion, I firmly believe, that 'modern aeroplanes fly themselves, that's what an autopilot is for' and as such wish to get us down to the lowest common denominator, and pilots who are willing to be walked over for the sake of shareholders reaping the rewards of their hard work - hard work which keeps thousands of lives save every year.
Obviously I know you're not trying to dumb down the piloting profession but I do enjoy preaching when the opportunity comes up!
I have to say that before I began flying, I had limited respect for unions. Having now seen the good they can do, and the comparison between those companies who don't have an organised pilot body (no guesses), the ONLY way that this industry can survive as a career is for pilots to start standing up for themselves.
Thanks to Ryanair, people have now think it actuallly costs 40 quid to get an aeroplane to Malaga with respectfully paid staff, and that's because the staff have failed to stand up for themselves. MOL and his sort can replace one pilot making a stand. Can he replace a few hundred? Or cope with the bad publicity? (Don't answer that last bit, I know the answer, annoyingly)
Train drivers did, in fact, once get paid well for their job. They failed to stand up for themselves where we have to succeed. And we have to succeed - I paid the best part of 90 grand for training, I don't intend to do this for a) less than 30 years and b) £20,000 a year.
And what do I think is repectable? Including flight pay, £45,000 year 1 for an F/O if we're paying for training ourselves, up to £60,000 at say year 6, and a captain, who is the man whose name is on the paper saying he's responsible for everything his crew do, £80,000 year one to £120,000 top-of-scale. More for training and standards. And a premium for long haul, which ruins your body clock, your home life and your admiration of a nice stay in a hotel.
I'm only jealous.
What are pilot's worth? Depends on your point of view. A similar thread recently elicted a lot of responses - one from an obvious manager stated that pilots are only really a resourse and were earning too much.
Was Captain Sullenberger a resource when he deadsticked his 320 into the Hudson saving everyone's life? I bet after that, his company considered him an asset!
One things for sure, there's not much training going on now and if an upturn comes along, as it surely will - there's going to be a shortage of 'resources' and asset pay will be the norm!
Was Captain Sullenberger a resource when he deadsticked his 320 into the Hudson saving everyone's life? I bet after that, his company considered him an asset!
One things for sure, there's not much training going on now and if an upturn comes along, as it surely will - there's going to be a shortage of 'resources' and asset pay will be the norm!