Just what are pilots worth then?
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Pilots salary and benefits are wide ranging. 2 guys doing roughly the same job can be on wildly different salaries.
At my company a year 1 capt will just about make a 6 figure salary with a pretty good benefits package to boot. My mate at another airline is a year 1 capt and gets just half that with almost no additional benefits yet they both have the same responsibilities, work the same sort of hours etc. Go figure.
At my company a year 1 capt will just about make a 6 figure salary with a pretty good benefits package to boot. My mate at another airline is a year 1 capt and gets just half that with almost no additional benefits yet they both have the same responsibilities, work the same sort of hours etc. Go figure.
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I'm not going to go through what other people have already done, but compare what we do with that of another professional of similar level of responsibility:
Surgeons: How much do they earn? They have a job of "fixing" people and saving lives and under a considerable amount of pressure. I wouldn't say stress as such as you can't get to the level of surgeon or consultant without considerable experience and more to the point talent. Talent is what I believe we posess; to fly in the first place, as not all people have the capacity and ability, together with the mentality to react appropriately under pressure (sometimnes extreme) and all this without the passengers even knowing anything is wrong.
Do they take bi-annual tests that determines if they have a job the next day?
Do they pay from £40k to £90k for the training
I'm not saying I'm a brain surgeon but I do believe that we do have a similar level of responsibility and profesionalism.
On the complete opposite side of the coin, do you really think that the City traders gaining millions in bonuses every year earn their salary? I think the recent credit crunsh answers that question.
We get paid what we should in my opinion. I get just below £40k basic and can make another £20k a year on allowances. I'm very happy as a first year F/O to be paid this much. (oh and I didn't pay for my place in the airline and didnt pay for the TR, just incase anyone decides to throw that one back at me).
Surgeons: How much do they earn? They have a job of "fixing" people and saving lives and under a considerable amount of pressure. I wouldn't say stress as such as you can't get to the level of surgeon or consultant without considerable experience and more to the point talent. Talent is what I believe we posess; to fly in the first place, as not all people have the capacity and ability, together with the mentality to react appropriately under pressure (sometimnes extreme) and all this without the passengers even knowing anything is wrong.
Do they take bi-annual tests that determines if they have a job the next day?
Do they pay from £40k to £90k for the training
I'm not saying I'm a brain surgeon but I do believe that we do have a similar level of responsibility and profesionalism.
On the complete opposite side of the coin, do you really think that the City traders gaining millions in bonuses every year earn their salary? I think the recent credit crunsh answers that question.
We get paid what we should in my opinion. I get just below £40k basic and can make another £20k a year on allowances. I'm very happy as a first year F/O to be paid this much. (oh and I didn't pay for my place in the airline and didnt pay for the TR, just incase anyone decides to throw that one back at me).
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Pilots are unfortunately not worth as much to an airline as we all would like to think.
For a start, there are plenty of us. What we do isn't particularily difficult (on a normal day) and it is hard to "add value" to what we do on a day to day basis.
Arguments such as "we're in charge of millions of pounds of equipment" or "we're stopping crashes daily" etc.etc are I'm afraid, moot. That is what we are supposed to do. That's simply what the job entails. It doesn't guarantee you a high salary.
Companies value employees on what value they offer. Pilots aren't revenue raisers anymore than bus drivers or train drivers are. We facilitate things, but as individuals we aren't worth anymore than someone else with the same qualifications.
The relentless downward drive on T&C's is in part due to people like MOL, but it is also due to the fact that the job itself has changed. No longer are we the god like figures of the '50's and '60's. Much of the skill has been taken away from flying with the advent of better avionics and aircraft.
The old example of an executive removing one olive from each meal and saving their company a vast sum of money, shows why higher salaries go to people who control things like that. It isn't that they are smarter, harder working or anything else, it is just that their contribution makes a tangible and measureable difference and is more easily rewarded.
I'm not saying that this is right, it's just how it is and pilots need to look at what they do actually bring to a company other than just the basics of flying an aircraft safely from A to B. Any idiot can do that. I know that to be true, because I can do it...
As one airline HR director said to me. "Pilots do nothing but whinge, they never give any real reason to pay them any more."
Taking that into account, in my opinion, pilots should paid well for reasons such as;
They are managers of a large team.
They have the ability to directly affect costs via fuel burn, routings, not missing slots etc.
They are one of the public faces of the company (difficult with locked cockpit doors now) but how often do you see anyone from the flight deck actually meeting and greeting pax? How often do you hear PA's that actually make you wonder if the crew give a monkeys about anything?
They have the authority to make large financial decisions. Fuel, pax offloading etc.
They are responsible for a large piece of company property and ensuring that it is not only undamaged, but that it is operated in the most cost effective manner, both on a short term and long term basis.
We are the decision makers in an emergency. Our job is to protect the lives of our passengers when something goes wrong and therefore protect the company image. Capt. Sullenberger is a good example of why we need experienced, well paid people in the cockpit. How much PR value has he added to his company?
These are some of the arguments that can be used.
Nonsense stuff like "we fly planes and make sure they don't crash" is not an argument that any airline manager is going to listen too or give a hoot about nor are whinges about how much training costs us. If you don't like the cost, then don't do it.
For a start, there are plenty of us. What we do isn't particularily difficult (on a normal day) and it is hard to "add value" to what we do on a day to day basis.
Arguments such as "we're in charge of millions of pounds of equipment" or "we're stopping crashes daily" etc.etc are I'm afraid, moot. That is what we are supposed to do. That's simply what the job entails. It doesn't guarantee you a high salary.
Companies value employees on what value they offer. Pilots aren't revenue raisers anymore than bus drivers or train drivers are. We facilitate things, but as individuals we aren't worth anymore than someone else with the same qualifications.
The relentless downward drive on T&C's is in part due to people like MOL, but it is also due to the fact that the job itself has changed. No longer are we the god like figures of the '50's and '60's. Much of the skill has been taken away from flying with the advent of better avionics and aircraft.
The old example of an executive removing one olive from each meal and saving their company a vast sum of money, shows why higher salaries go to people who control things like that. It isn't that they are smarter, harder working or anything else, it is just that their contribution makes a tangible and measureable difference and is more easily rewarded.
I'm not saying that this is right, it's just how it is and pilots need to look at what they do actually bring to a company other than just the basics of flying an aircraft safely from A to B. Any idiot can do that. I know that to be true, because I can do it...
As one airline HR director said to me. "Pilots do nothing but whinge, they never give any real reason to pay them any more."
Taking that into account, in my opinion, pilots should paid well for reasons such as;
They are managers of a large team.
They have the ability to directly affect costs via fuel burn, routings, not missing slots etc.
They are one of the public faces of the company (difficult with locked cockpit doors now) but how often do you see anyone from the flight deck actually meeting and greeting pax? How often do you hear PA's that actually make you wonder if the crew give a monkeys about anything?
They have the authority to make large financial decisions. Fuel, pax offloading etc.
They are responsible for a large piece of company property and ensuring that it is not only undamaged, but that it is operated in the most cost effective manner, both on a short term and long term basis.
We are the decision makers in an emergency. Our job is to protect the lives of our passengers when something goes wrong and therefore protect the company image. Capt. Sullenberger is a good example of why we need experienced, well paid people in the cockpit. How much PR value has he added to his company?
These are some of the arguments that can be used.
Nonsense stuff like "we fly planes and make sure they don't crash" is not an argument that any airline manager is going to listen too or give a hoot about nor are whinges about how much training costs us. If you don't like the cost, then don't do it.
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I'm a wannabe for the sole reason that I don't think pilots are paid enough - there was no incentive for me to change careers.
The salaries which have been mentioned aren't that bad, per se. However, take into account the responsibility and other factors then they do seem small.
The issue for me is the investment costs of training and the costs of lost earnings + financing are not justified by the salaries earned by newly qualified pilots (if they can get a job at all). Not only is this a shame, but I do wonder whether really good pilots are not entering the industry because it is not financially viable - leading to an overal reduction in quality (of course all pilots are trained to rigourous standards, but even within that some are better than others and potentially might handle an emergency situation better than others).
As a passenger it would give me greater comfort that the chaps up-front are picked purely on the basis of ability, and not just ability to pay or tolerate reducing T&Cs.
The salaries which have been mentioned aren't that bad, per se. However, take into account the responsibility and other factors then they do seem small.
The issue for me is the investment costs of training and the costs of lost earnings + financing are not justified by the salaries earned by newly qualified pilots (if they can get a job at all). Not only is this a shame, but I do wonder whether really good pilots are not entering the industry because it is not financially viable - leading to an overal reduction in quality (of course all pilots are trained to rigourous standards, but even within that some are better than others and potentially might handle an emergency situation better than others).
As a passenger it would give me greater comfort that the chaps up-front are picked purely on the basis of ability, and not just ability to pay or tolerate reducing T&Cs.
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It's interesting that the Services and BA have always looked for candidates who show a history of having an interest in aviation - aeromodelling, Air Cadets and the like. Self-improvers have always shown commitment by self-funding their licences and ratings.
I seem to remember BA went through a stage years ago where they employed pilots who decided 'on a whim' to become airline pilots, but found that a higher proportion than expected didn't stay the course.
I wonder if, in the long-term, the majority of these able young people will become jaded and seek employment in other fields?
During the past few years I have come across very qualified people (Oxbridge graduates for example) pursuing a career in aviation. I have also spoken with ex-Service pilots who wished they had a second career and could get out.
I wonder if all the bright young things will be quite so bright and committed fifteen or twenty years down the line?
I have never found airline flying boring, but it is routine and I wonder if it will prove to be the Utopia they all dreamed of in the fullness of time?
Flying offers good wages at a young age, particularly for a twenty-something employed flying jets. But for the next 40 years, all other things being equal, they'll still be flying jets. An instant fix - but will these pilots be mentally and physically able to cope with the stresses of airline flying, particularly in the low-cost environment where the long-term effects of continually flying four and six sector days have not yet been assessed?
Will the '9 to 5' lifestyles of their peers, particularly in later life, seem a better option?
How will their family life be affected? I know a lot of pilots who pursued a career in aviation - but their lives are nothing else with no partner, no family or a family broken up by the pursuit of their flying dream.
Terms and condition of employment are being eroded, but equally importantly so is quality of life.
KR
FOK
I seem to remember BA went through a stage years ago where they employed pilots who decided 'on a whim' to become airline pilots, but found that a higher proportion than expected didn't stay the course.
I wonder if, in the long-term, the majority of these able young people will become jaded and seek employment in other fields?
During the past few years I have come across very qualified people (Oxbridge graduates for example) pursuing a career in aviation. I have also spoken with ex-Service pilots who wished they had a second career and could get out.
I wonder if all the bright young things will be quite so bright and committed fifteen or twenty years down the line?
I have never found airline flying boring, but it is routine and I wonder if it will prove to be the Utopia they all dreamed of in the fullness of time?
Flying offers good wages at a young age, particularly for a twenty-something employed flying jets. But for the next 40 years, all other things being equal, they'll still be flying jets. An instant fix - but will these pilots be mentally and physically able to cope with the stresses of airline flying, particularly in the low-cost environment where the long-term effects of continually flying four and six sector days have not yet been assessed?
Will the '9 to 5' lifestyles of their peers, particularly in later life, seem a better option?
How will their family life be affected? I know a lot of pilots who pursued a career in aviation - but their lives are nothing else with no partner, no family or a family broken up by the pursuit of their flying dream.
Terms and condition of employment are being eroded, but equally importantly so is quality of life.
KR
FOK
Top Trainer (TRI/TRE) £100,000
Senior Captain £ 85,000
Senior F/O £ 60,000
Junior F/O (SSTR) £ 50,000 (to help him to pay back his type rating)
Junior F/O (No Rating) £ 30,000 (until his training costs are recouped)
Anything above that is clearly excessive.
I'll get my coat and my flak jacket.
Senior Captain £ 85,000
Senior F/O £ 60,000
Junior F/O (SSTR) £ 50,000 (to help him to pay back his type rating)
Junior F/O (No Rating) £ 30,000 (until his training costs are recouped)
Anything above that is clearly excessive.
I'll get my coat and my flak jacket.
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I'm not saying I'm a brain surgeon but I do believe that we do have a similar level of responsibility and profesionalism.
Whilst I agree that we possess a degree of ability and talent, I don't think we need get carried away and compare ourselves with high level medics etc. There is no requirement for degree level education for example, and I have encountered quite a few 'plodders' in aviation, who I definitely would not want anywhere near me with a scalpel.
For me, 40k for a 50+ tonne jet FO, and 70k for a year 1 captain on the same machine seems about fair. Plus all the usual extras of course! Add 20k and 30k respectively for anything over 100 tonnes, and take 10k/20k off for a turboprop (even though they are more demanding in many ways).
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Pilots, just like any other job on this planet are worth what people/passengers are prepared to pay for them.
As we live in an era where people want to be able to fly across the globe for ten pence including taxes then pilots are the expensive part of the 10 pence and, hence, overpaid.
When we see the likes of Capt Sullenberger and the BA038 crews using experience and calm thought to get broken aircraft down without loss of life it gives a window of opportunity for people to realise that pilots are an insurance premium against the unthinkable.
Sadly it often takes a multitude of incidents/accidents to get that across.
Until then pilot terms and condition will continue to be eroded in the name of profit.
So, whatever you earn, enjoy it.
As we live in an era where people want to be able to fly across the globe for ten pence including taxes then pilots are the expensive part of the 10 pence and, hence, overpaid.
When we see the likes of Capt Sullenberger and the BA038 crews using experience and calm thought to get broken aircraft down without loss of life it gives a window of opportunity for people to realise that pilots are an insurance premium against the unthinkable.
Sadly it often takes a multitude of incidents/accidents to get that across.
Until then pilot terms and condition will continue to be eroded in the name of profit.
So, whatever you earn, enjoy it.
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Dr Eckener, thanks for fitting the stereotypical Old School Pilot, cast by splitting hairs.
Are you the type of pilot who doesn't approve of improved climb figures?
Thanks for the positive feedback, I will install spell checker, I hope the post was worth it?
Are you the type of pilot who doesn't approve of improved climb figures?
Thanks for the positive feedback, I will install spell checker, I hope the post was worth it?
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flyingwithwins
I was puzzled by your comment about "really good candidates not entering the profession ."
Why should the "poor pay" only repel the good candidates ?
That apart ,who are the good candidates ? Before entering any career, I would bet that 90% think they are above average ( obviously nonsense, but there we are ) and at that point noboby has any idea of their real potential.
I would therefore postulate ( been waiting a long time to use that ! ) that the people put off by "poor pay" will be a representative cross-section of the group who are not and not exclusively "really good candidates".
I was puzzled by your comment about "really good candidates not entering the profession ."
Why should the "poor pay" only repel the good candidates ?
That apart ,who are the good candidates ? Before entering any career, I would bet that 90% think they are above average ( obviously nonsense, but there we are ) and at that point noboby has any idea of their real potential.
I would therefore postulate ( been waiting a long time to use that ! ) that the people put off by "poor pay" will be a representative cross-section of the group who are not and not exclusively "really good candidates".
This trite comment gets trotted out time after time after time.
So what effect did BA038 have on BA's traffic figures?
What effect has AF447 had on AF traffic figures?
Both of them were accidents.
Were the crews particularly badly paid?
So what effect did BA038 have on BA's traffic figures?
What effect has AF447 had on AF traffic figures?
Both of them were accidents.
Were the crews particularly badly paid?
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Are you the type of pilot who doesn't approve of improved climb figures?
I was just pointing out that we are not brain surgeons.
Salaries can vary widely depending on the size and type of vessels involved. Captains with many years of experience working on container ships, oil tankers, or passenger ships may earn $100,000 or more each year. Captains of tugboats also tend to earn high pay.
The U.S. Department of Labor estimates that ship captains, mates, and marine pilots, studied as a group, earned an average salary of $67,730 in 2008.
The U.S. Department of Labor estimates that ship captains, mates, and marine pilots, studied as a group, earned an average salary of $67,730 in 2008.
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I can give a comparison from my previous job FO for 2 yrs with a Loco in the Midlands on a 737. £42k minus £330 - training bond for 3 yrs (after tax!), probably another £3k in sector pay, pension but couldn't afford to join it, no health cover till Capt or 3 yrs service. I took voluntary redundancy in Feb as I was very likely to have been affected and thought the company was on its way out anyway, which with very recent announcements it looks like it probably is.
I returned to my previous career which is Medical sales. Salary is £35k with potential to earn between £70 - 80k through bonuses (although not guaranteed is pretty achievable) fully expensed company car, private healthcare, Pension, phone, laptop, lunch allowance, Broadband....
My comparisons from the two are that it is more the lifestyle of a pilot through unsociable working patterns and lack of control on your life that affected me. I've certainly never been so tired, earlies to lates being a killer, very few weekends off, inability to book holiday when it suited us as a family etc....
In my current job I get every weekend off, I don't have to do funny shifts, I can book a week off next July if I want to, I know I am off for Christmas!! However as someone else mentions I can't walk away as easily at the end of the working day from my current job as you can when flying a plane and have to work on the laptop at home etc...
I like most paid £60k+ of my mine and my wife’s money to train to be a pilot and this is a big factor as I don't think the returns on that expenditure are worth it but hold my hands up that I did it of my own free will and no one forced me to do it. The problem is flying is seen as glamorous and it's not until you are in it that you realise it isn't! I have people comment to me in my current job that I must have taken a drop in working conditions and benefits to return to Sales, the sad fact is I get treated better now than when I flew, plus I have never had to pay a penny for any training. I feel very fortunate that I had something to return to especially in the current climate.
Hand on heart though I can't help but miss the flying at times but the way things are going I can't see anyway back to it for quite some time to come.
I returned to my previous career which is Medical sales. Salary is £35k with potential to earn between £70 - 80k through bonuses (although not guaranteed is pretty achievable) fully expensed company car, private healthcare, Pension, phone, laptop, lunch allowance, Broadband....
My comparisons from the two are that it is more the lifestyle of a pilot through unsociable working patterns and lack of control on your life that affected me. I've certainly never been so tired, earlies to lates being a killer, very few weekends off, inability to book holiday when it suited us as a family etc....
In my current job I get every weekend off, I don't have to do funny shifts, I can book a week off next July if I want to, I know I am off for Christmas!! However as someone else mentions I can't walk away as easily at the end of the working day from my current job as you can when flying a plane and have to work on the laptop at home etc...
I like most paid £60k+ of my mine and my wife’s money to train to be a pilot and this is a big factor as I don't think the returns on that expenditure are worth it but hold my hands up that I did it of my own free will and no one forced me to do it. The problem is flying is seen as glamorous and it's not until you are in it that you realise it isn't! I have people comment to me in my current job that I must have taken a drop in working conditions and benefits to return to Sales, the sad fact is I get treated better now than when I flew, plus I have never had to pay a penny for any training. I feel very fortunate that I had something to return to especially in the current climate.
Hand on heart though I can't help but miss the flying at times but the way things are going I can't see anyway back to it for quite some time to come.
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Mates from previous industry : 80,000 GBP for the lowest. Unknown but extraordinary income for the wealthiest but "considerably richer than yaa"...
I don't feel singled out at all. Rather, I'd feel singled out in the bottom of the case...
I don't feel singled out at all. Rather, I'd feel singled out in the bottom of the case...
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Unfortunatly i think we are only worth what we can get the company to pay us... And as long as newbies will be paying for TR with no guaranteed job ect its only going to continue going downhill..
A few yrs ago before this crisis, there was a massive boom, pilots req bigtime... talk of pilot shortage.... but overall the T&C didnt escalate, in fact, they just took newbies with 200hrs to fly because they were willing to pay for training and work for next to nothing.
My 2c worth.
A few yrs ago before this crisis, there was a massive boom, pilots req bigtime... talk of pilot shortage.... but overall the T&C didnt escalate, in fact, they just took newbies with 200hrs to fly because they were willing to pay for training and work for next to nothing.
My 2c worth.
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Surgeons and pilots cannot be compared and I wish we'd stop using that comparison.
There are some similarities, but the skill level and knowledge needed by a surgeon FAR outweighs what we do.
"If we make one mistake we kill hundreds, they can only kill one" is also a load of nonsense. They only have to make small mistakes to kill someone, we have to make some pretty major boo boo's to get ourselves into a position to kill people by our own mistakes.
I know plenty of pilots (obviously) and I know quite a few surgeons too, we are similar in many ways, but all I know would definately be in the higher percentiles of pilots. I even know a couple who pilots aswell. All I can say about them, is that they are superb pilots and instructors. They are calm and thoughtful, as far from the gung-ho scalpel jock stereotype as it is possible to get.
Nowadays, you don't really need to be that smart to be an airline pilot (this site proves that time and again!) whereas to become a consultant surgeon, you have to be smarter and more dedicated than we do.
This isn't to say that some pilots aren't very smart and talented, but the barriers to entry for our profession are far lower than a surgeon's.
There are some similarities, but the skill level and knowledge needed by a surgeon FAR outweighs what we do.
"If we make one mistake we kill hundreds, they can only kill one" is also a load of nonsense. They only have to make small mistakes to kill someone, we have to make some pretty major boo boo's to get ourselves into a position to kill people by our own mistakes.
I know plenty of pilots (obviously) and I know quite a few surgeons too, we are similar in many ways, but all I know would definately be in the higher percentiles of pilots. I even know a couple who pilots aswell. All I can say about them, is that they are superb pilots and instructors. They are calm and thoughtful, as far from the gung-ho scalpel jock stereotype as it is possible to get.
Nowadays, you don't really need to be that smart to be an airline pilot (this site proves that time and again!) whereas to become a consultant surgeon, you have to be smarter and more dedicated than we do.
This isn't to say that some pilots aren't very smart and talented, but the barriers to entry for our profession are far lower than a surgeon's.
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We are talking here apples and lemons: surgeons aren't that special, nor for that matter are airline pilots. They do both, however, have an expertise that the public may wish to draw down at some point.
The fundamental difference is that the surgeon is 1 on 1: he / she will generally visit with you and discuss / explain the procedure with you. In turn you will have the opportunity to make your assessment of the individual, not from a technical or professional perspective, but from a humanitarian perspective.
When you buy your airline ticket you make a judgement based on anything but the skill or expertise of your pilot / crew. You take it for granted that they will deliver you to your destination in one piece.
At some point, the surgeon will need a pilot or a lawyer: equally the pilot will need a lawyer or a dentist. The wheel has many spokes and trying to compare one with the other has no merit as each has its' own unique social benefits.
The fundamental difference is that the surgeon is 1 on 1: he / she will generally visit with you and discuss / explain the procedure with you. In turn you will have the opportunity to make your assessment of the individual, not from a technical or professional perspective, but from a humanitarian perspective.
When you buy your airline ticket you make a judgement based on anything but the skill or expertise of your pilot / crew. You take it for granted that they will deliver you to your destination in one piece.
At some point, the surgeon will need a pilot or a lawyer: equally the pilot will need a lawyer or a dentist. The wheel has many spokes and trying to compare one with the other has no merit as each has its' own unique social benefits.
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As one who has put their life in the hands of a surgeon on more than one occasion. I'm quite happy to put them on a small pedestal!
Personality wise, there are many traits that good surgeons and pilots share, but the training that they go through far exceeds anything we do in the commercial world.
Their value compared to us, is also compounded by the vast amount of time and money thrown at them by the NHS to train them. FLying is an expensive game to train into, but the cost of training a surgeon, comes closer to that of a military pilot than a civvy one.
Their employers have far more invested in them, than ours do for us and so they are more valuble.
Add in the fact that they have a very, very strong professional body to represent their interests, then there are huge differences in how they are treated compared to us commercial pilots.
That didn't use to be the case, but it is now.
Personality wise, there are many traits that good surgeons and pilots share, but the training that they go through far exceeds anything we do in the commercial world.
Their value compared to us, is also compounded by the vast amount of time and money thrown at them by the NHS to train them. FLying is an expensive game to train into, but the cost of training a surgeon, comes closer to that of a military pilot than a civvy one.
Their employers have far more invested in them, than ours do for us and so they are more valuble.
Add in the fact that they have a very, very strong professional body to represent their interests, then there are huge differences in how they are treated compared to us commercial pilots.
That didn't use to be the case, but it is now.