PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Forgotten your Username/Password?

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 17th Aug 2013, 18:34   #141 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 361
I am highly distressed at the course modern aviation (of all forms ) has taken.

Automation...great as it never fails (didn't anyone see "2001, a space odyssey"? Hal, HAL, daisy daisy give me your answer do)

We have shrunk the single most important instrument (airspeed) to a sidebar

We have taken the mental situational awareness away...my brain could, with two VORs , a DME, and an NDB/ADF know exactly where we were all the time.

We are asking olympic athletes to use elevators and escalators and get old and fat. (of the aviation brain that is).


I know how I would design a jetliner...the cockpit would have a giant airspeed indicator and a giant horizon and a giant altimeter, there would be a HUD for airspeed, horizon and altimeter too.

The control system would be Douglas strong...cables, no computer interference and the plane itself would be strong enough to handle me flying the wings off it ONCE to a safe landing.

Of course I would fly it like an old lady to avoid having to use the ''fly the wings off'' saving system.

Now we have a plane...nav instruments and wx radar improvements ...sure...but the Basic instruments of flying are there and the standard scan for any landing would be; airspeed, runway, airspeed runway

instrument conditions would certainly include altitude, horizon and nav.

But we have moved away from FLYING in an effort to make the gadgets happy.


Like bubbers said, autopilot is for when you get bored of hand flying. And if you are performing a maneuver or approach using the autopilot, you better be ready to fly it as well as the autopilot or you shouldn't even try the maneuver or approach.

Even 20 years ago I watched (laughingly) as one pilot I was flying with had a devil of a time HAND FLYING at cruise altitude. He couldn't do it within ATP standards. I finally said, why not descend to an altitude that allows the plane to be a bit more stable. What to do if the autopilot fails?

What to do till the doctor arrives?

Back in the day, a pilot had to fly.
flarepilot is offline   Reply
Old 18th Aug 2013, 08:06   #142 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,270
Quote:
the cockpit would have a giant airspeed indicator and a giant horizon and a giant altimeter
Agree. Have you noticed how most wristwatches now have hands (pointers). Before that came digital numbers. Before that too were hands on the face of the clock. It is quicker to gauge the time by looking at the round dial watch. Don't ask me why but certainly it seems that way.
Round dial ASI's took your attention as their rate of change of airspeed in either direction stood out. Drum type ASI's need interpretation of a different type to round dial ASI's.

Take a look at the "modern" artificial horizon in glass cockpits. Usually a tiny triangle as "the little aeroplane" if you have a good imagination, and nothing like the old type of artificial horizons of yesteryear with a big "little aeroplane" that stood out like dog's balls and much easier to fly on instruments.

The glass cockpit AH's which are usually half camouflaged by coloured bakgrounds are designed primarily for flight directors and often surrounded by a plethora of additional flight information. Garmin displays are like reading a colour blindness chart. Somewhere among those colours is a "little aeroplane".

It may be why the average airline pilot brought up on button pushing often has trouble with basic instrument flying
A37575 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Aug 2013, 18:24   #143 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 361
It is incumbent upon the industry to remember that flying the plane is the most important thing one can do.

then comes navigation.

(lump in wx radar in the nav area...but you could clean things up by having a voice say: fly heading 220degrees, instead of cluttering up the cockpit with things so big they detract from basic flight instruments)

then comes communication...heck, modern times could have the controllers switch radio frequencies for you and you could forget about that.

But to lessen the importance of the flight instrument...no wonder we have crashes like Asiana.

And yes, the Air Speed Indicator with a pointer and a vref somewhere near the 3 or 4 o'clock position, V2 also is just about right.
flarepilot is offline   Reply
Old 22nd Aug 2013, 14:57   #144 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Posts: 1,255
Quote:
I am highly distressed at the course modern aviation (of all forms ) has taken.
I am not. It is far too easy for a PPRuNer to assume what mass-media are reporting is average crew performance while actually it is only the worst extreme that is nowadays recognized as reportingworthy.

Quote:
Automation...great as it never fails
That's not what operating and training manuals say. There are appropriate procedures for dealing with automation failures and they get followed far more often than not.

Quote:
The current myopia is that the gear won't break. This is self delusion at it's best.
As long as such myopia is limited to anonymous doom-rantings on the Internet, I'm fine with it. There are incompetent managers stipulating policies that are somewhat at odds with need to keep the pilots fit enough to take over from Otto/George when it packs up but while they might be flying-ignorant, they are still legal-savvy and would never explicitly even state their pilots need not be proficient in manual flying, let alone put it down in approved manuals.

Quote:
AF447 went down because a lighting strike flashed the ROMS, knocked out the tubes, no iron gyros and now in turbulence, you got pilots in the dark trying to handfly an aircraft with no attitude reference.
The purpose of this easily verifiable and utterly false statement is mystery to me.

Quote:
We have shrunk the single most important instrument (airspeed) to a sidebar
1. It is not the single most important instrument when you are flying without outside visual reference, as airline pilots often do. 2. There is no even half serious report on difficulties interpreting the airspeed from tape indicators ever since we got them on Thunderchief.

Quote:
We have taken the mental situational awareness away...
For Finnegan's sake.... how do you explain thousands upon thousands of uneventful flights every day or dozens of abnormal situations handled daily if the mental situational awareness is really taken away? Again: this is assuming the worst case scenario is actually the usual one.

Quote:
But we have moved away from FLYING in an effort to make the gadgets happy.
Never an inch. We, here, have moved from rational analysis into realm of fantasy gone wild just to make our scaremongering seem plausible.

Quote:
Drum type ASI's need interpretation of a different type to round dial ASI's.
I've flown the beast with drum and pointer altimeter but this... is this some kind of Soviet thingy? Can I have a picture of it, please?

My bet is it will turn out to be just added digital readout to speed tape.

Quote:
Take a look at the "modern" artificial horizon in glass cockpits. Usually a tiny triangle as "the little aeroplane" if you have a good imagination, and nothing like the old type of artificial horizons of yesteryear with a big "little aeroplane" that stood out like dog's balls and much easier to fly on instruments.
For Finnegan's sake, when I take a look around my office, the only AH comparable in size to those of steam gauge era is ISIS! Those on PFDs (and EADI before it) are far bigger than giant three-inchers of yesteryear. AS for tiny triangle a) it is not that tiny b) European airlines prefer split cue so we mostly still have aeroplane silhouette on AHs.

Quote:
The glass cockpit AH's which are usually half camouflaged by coloured bakgrounds are designed primarily for flight directors
Coloured background has pretty definite meaning: blue=sky, brown=ground. Just remember which is which.

Quote:
It may be why the average airline pilot brought up on button pushing often has trouble with basic instrument flying
Average pilot in average circumstances (hopefully this fits the "often" definition) doesn't but don't let the facts ruin the good libel.

Quote:
lump in wx radar in the nav area...but you could clean things up by having a voice say: fly heading 220degrees, instead of cluttering up the cockpit with things so big they detract from basic flight instruments
What kind of lump? Where is the sun? What is the wind? Is it the only lump around? Where is the terrain in relation to lump? What wx is our destination calling? Will our contingency+extra cover the deviation?

Create computer and program that will solve all of it satisfactorily to just give you "steer to..." as solution and I guarantee the Nobel prize in computer science will be made just to be delivered to you, because you will achieve true artificial intelligence.

Quote:
And yes, the Air Speed Indicator with a pointer and a vref somewhere near the 3 or 4 o'clock position, V2 also is just about right.
It is. So is the tape type.
Clandestino is offline   Reply
Old 22nd Aug 2013, 20:02   #145 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 361
clandestino

yes airspeed might not be the most important thing while on instruments...but my comment was aimed at landing and or visual conditions.

and in visual conditions asiana managed to get too slow.they didn't need a horizon to know they were right side up. we shall see
flarepilot is offline   Reply
Old 25th Aug 2013, 07:24   #146 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Not far from the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy in the Orion Arm.
Posts: 435
[QUOTE]Land-Rover, to have the system miss the "offending phrase"/QUOTE]

``Randy Lover?``
Natstrackalpha is offline   Reply
Old 25th Aug 2013, 07:26   #147 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Not far from the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy in the Orion Arm.
Posts: 435
[QUOTE]that stood out like dog's balls and much easier to fly on instruments. /QUOTE]

Yawing Right tread on left ball, yawing left tread on right ball - dog yelping - too much rudder!

You could have a concrete boulder tied to a chain suspended from the overhead panel. When the aircraft banks the huge boulder bangs the heads of the crew to wake them up -

Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 25th Aug 2013 at 07:33.
Natstrackalpha is offline   Reply
Old 25th Aug 2013, 07:35   #148 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 61
Posts: 739
I just love this piece of

Quote:
Automation...great as it never fails
as a former control systems engineer I can assure you that automation is only ever as good as the sensors. when either they fail or the link to them fails you'd better have a good fallback approach.

Last edited by dubbleyew eight; 25th Aug 2013 at 07:36.
dubbleyew eight is offline   Reply
Old 25th Aug 2013, 10:11   #149 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 1,588
when either they fail or the link to them fails you'd better have a good fallback approach.

It's called the disconnect button and the pilot.
RAT 5 is offline   Reply
Old 25th Aug 2013, 23:30   #150 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 17
Another pilots veiw of Visual App

There I was at six thousand feet over central Iraq , two hundred eighty knots and we're dropping faster than Paris Hilton's panties. It's a typical September evening in the Persian Gulf ; hotter than a rectal thermometer and I'm sweating like a priest at a Cub Scout meeting. But that's neither here nor there. The night is moonless over Baghdad tonight, and blacker than a Steven King novel. But it's 2006, folks, and I'm sporting the latest in night-combat technology - namely, hand-me-down night vision goggles (NVGs) thrown out by the fighter boys. Additionally, my 1962 Lockheed C-130E Hercules is equipped with an obsolete, yet, semi-effective missile warning system (MWS). The MWS conveniently makes a nice soothing tone in your headset just before the missile explodes into your airplane. Who says you can't polish a turd? At any rate, the NVGs are illuminating Baghdad International Airport like the Las Vegas Strip during a Mike Tyson fight. These NVGs are the cat's ass. But I've digressed. The preferred method of approach tonight is the random shallow. This tactical maneuver allows the pilot to ingress the landing zone in an unpredictable manner, thus exploiting the supposedly secured perimeter of the airfield in an attempt to avoide enemy surface-to-air-missiles and small arms fire. Personally, I wouldn't bet my pink ass on that theory but the approach is fun as hell and that's the real reason we fly it. We get a visual on the runway at three miles out, drop down to one thousand feet above the ground, still maintaining two hundred eighty knots. Now the fun starts.It's pilot appreciation time as I descend the mighty Herc to six hundred feet and smoothly, yet very deliberately, yank into a sixty degree left bank, turning the aircraft ninety degrees offset from runway heading. As soon as we roll out of the turn, I reverse turn to the right a full two hundred seventy degrees in order to roll out aligned with the runway. Some aeronautical genius coined this maneuver the "Ninety/Two-Seventy." Chopping the power during the turn, I pull back on the yoke just to the point my nether regions start to sag, bleeding off energy in order to configure the pig for landing. "Flaps Fifty!, landing Gear Down!, Before Landing Checklist!" I lookover at the copilot and he's shaking like a cat shitting on a sheet of ice. Looking further back at the navigator, and even through the Nags, I can clearly see the wet spot spreading around his crotch. Finally, I glance at my steely eyed flight engineer. His eyebrows rise in unison as a grin forms on his face. I can tell he's thinking the same thing I am .... "Where do we find such fine young men?""Flaps One Hundred!" I bark at the shaking cat. Now it's all aim-point and airspeed. Aviation 101, with the exception there are no lights, I'm on NVGs, it's Baghdad , and now tracers are starting to crisscross the black sky. Naturally, and not at all surprisingly, I grease the Goodyear's on brick-one of runway 33 left, bring the throttles to ground idle and then force the props to full reverse pitch. Tonight, the sound of freedom is my four Hamilton Standard propellers chewing through the thick, putrid, Baghdad air. The huge, one hundred thirty-thousand pound, lumbering whisper pig comes to a lurching stop in less than two thousand feet. Let's see a Viper do that!We exit the runway to a welcoming committee of government issued Army grunts. It's time to download their beans and bullets and letters from their sweethearts, look for war booty, and of course, urinate on Saddam's home. Then I thank God I'm not in the Army. Knowing once again I've cheated death, I ask myself, "What in the hell am I doing in this mess?" Is it Duty, Honor, and Country? You bet your ass. Or could it possibly be for the glory, the swag, and not to mention, chicks dig the Air Medal. There's probably some truth there, too. But now is not the time to derive the complexities of the superior, cerebral properties of the human portion of the aviator-man-machine model. It is however, time to get out of this hole. Hey copilot how's 'bout the 'Before Starting Engines Checklist." God, I love this job!!!!
N1EPR is offline   Reply
Old 26th Aug 2013, 00:36   #151 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: BOQ
Age: 69
Posts: 595
The mundane life of the airline pilot is beckoning....
OK465 is offline   Reply
Old 26th Aug 2013, 00:49   #152 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 361
Instead of talking about l@ser ring gyros, let's get back to basic flying like our gallant C130 jockey

I'll bet less than half of those on this forum have ever used a 90/270 in any situation.
flarepilot is offline   Reply
Old 27th Aug 2013, 05:54   #153 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Usually Oz
Posts: 707
Wink

Flarepilot,

Air displays. Works a treat!

BTW, I had tears in my eyes I was laughing so hard. Thanks N1EPR

G'day

Last edited by Feather #3; 27th Aug 2013 at 05:55.
Feather #3 is offline   Reply
Old 27th Aug 2013, 09:36   #154 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 1,588
Last time I did that was in a crop-sprayer a couple of wing-tips off the deck. However, that a/c was built for it. Hauling a big C130 around like that must be a feeling of 'a job well done,' after the "what the **** am I doing this for" moment.
If you've got the t-shirt what brings a smile these days?
RAT 5 is offline   Reply
Old 27th Aug 2013, 13:36   #155 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 361
right now some real flying is being done in order to fight major wildfires in the western UNITED STATES, esp near and in Yosemite national park.

drone fire bombers? don't think that will be happening soon.
flarepilot is offline   Reply
Old 28th Aug 2013, 15:20   #156 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 638
Thumbs up Finally!!!!

Thanks N1EPR !!!

I've finally found someone who's posts can be as long as mine!!

.
AirRabbit is offline   Reply
Old 29th Aug 2013, 09:03   #157 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Posts: 1,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by flarepilot
I'll bet less than half of those on this forum have ever used a 90/270 in any situation.
90/270 is often used for course reversal... in imagination of the folks who don't actually fly.
Clandestino is offline   Reply
Old 29th Aug 2013, 09:32   #158 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: British West Hartlepool
Age: 58
Posts: 39
How can a ninety left followed by a two-seventy right not have you flying away from the runway? Or did I miss the half rolls?
mross is offline   Reply
Old 29th Aug 2013, 19:07   #159 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 72
Posts: 4,096
Quote:
How can a ninety left followed by a two-seventy right not have you flying away from the runway? Or did I miss the half rolls?
It's a simple course reversal. Need not have anything to do with a runway.
barit1 is offline   Reply
Old 29th Aug 2013, 19:08   #160 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 361
mross...imagine you are flying heading 360 degrees over runway 36 make a left 90 followed by a right 270 and you should be heading 180 in a place to go straight in to runway 18

it is a course reversal

and dear clandestino

real pilots do use 90/270s in real life and in the sim.

we are allowed to do them in lieu of a charted procedure turn as long as it is on the protected side.

I've done them in real jets / real instrument simulators...GETTING PAID REAL MONEY.

Last edited by flarepilot; 29th Aug 2013 at 19:08.
flarepilot is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:44.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network