crappy situation, advise needed A320
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Sometimes bad ATC handling puts you high and in a bind as we were coming into Seattle one day in icing conditions. I had to hold a higher power setting because of the anti icing.
They finally cleared us down on downwind in an MD80 so to make a decent approach used the speed brakes to full. The captain said don't use the speed brakes, they buffet too much so I stowed them. We are really high so he says when do you want to turn base. I said I don't know because he wouldn't let me fly with the icing conditions with speed brakes so extended about 14 miles to get down with the anti ice on and no drag. I was irritated enough I didn't care if I had to fly into Canada to turn.
In your situation I probably would have increased 20 knots and used speed brakes if ATC could authorize it. If it makes it impossible because they want you to stay slow and expedite decent just say it is one or the other.
Once you become a captain life gets so much better. Hang on. When an FO asked me which way to go or how to descend I just said I'm operating the radio, you are flying.
They finally cleared us down on downwind in an MD80 so to make a decent approach used the speed brakes to full. The captain said don't use the speed brakes, they buffet too much so I stowed them. We are really high so he says when do you want to turn base. I said I don't know because he wouldn't let me fly with the icing conditions with speed brakes so extended about 14 miles to get down with the anti ice on and no drag. I was irritated enough I didn't care if I had to fly into Canada to turn.
In your situation I probably would have increased 20 knots and used speed brakes if ATC could authorize it. If it makes it impossible because they want you to stay slow and expedite decent just say it is one or the other.
Once you become a captain life gets so much better. Hang on. When an FO asked me which way to go or how to descend I just said I'm operating the radio, you are flying.
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Of course you help your FO learn if he wants help but leading your FO around using your style intices him to try to read your mind, not do what he wants to do. He is going to be a captain some day and letting him figure his own way around a thunderstorm is much better then leading him around it every time. He needs confidence in his own judgement, not trying to please the captain.
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Airmen25 - it's been my experience the less confident the pilot, or Captain, the smaller the tolerance window they have. It's a tough situation to work under. But it can also be viewed as a challenge. If you can stay within the 'box' that keeps them more relaxed you'll operate better as a team.
I wish there was a perfect answer for flying with a difficult or even unreasonable Captain. Part of experience is learning how to 'read' the Captain. No, they don't have a license to be Captain Quegg(google 'The Caine Mutiny') but each crew, or Captain, is slightly different. A good Captain will adjust just as good FO's adjust to the dynamics of a different crew.
You mentioned that you were on a trip as a second FO. Watch the more experienced FO's when you're the second FO. It can be a great learning experience. I'd pay extra attention to see how the Captains, or more experienced FO's, deal with situations that are slight different than standard operations. That's the value of experience, turning potentially interesting situations into anticlimactic events.
I wish there was a perfect answer for flying with a difficult or even unreasonable Captain. Part of experience is learning how to 'read' the Captain. No, they don't have a license to be Captain Quegg(google 'The Caine Mutiny') but each crew, or Captain, is slightly different. A good Captain will adjust just as good FO's adjust to the dynamics of a different crew.
You mentioned that you were on a trip as a second FO. Watch the more experienced FO's when you're the second FO. It can be a great learning experience. I'd pay extra attention to see how the Captains, or more experienced FO's, deal with situations that are slight different than standard operations. That's the value of experience, turning potentially interesting situations into anticlimactic events.
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ma, you are right on about captains that are weak. Their window is very narrow. I hated flying with them or with the ultra egos so swore I would never do it when I got in the left seat. We were a small airline flying 737's with pilots expected to be captains in a few years so all had experience and it was a small fun flying club. Everybody knew how to fly jets when hired.
Then we got bought by the mega airline everything was different. The mega airline FO's prefered flying with us because it was such an easy day. Just fly and enjoy the job. No BS.
We figured out how to make the mega airline job fun too.
Then we got bought by the mega airline everything was different. The mega airline FO's prefered flying with us because it was such an easy day. Just fly and enjoy the job. No BS.
We figured out how to make the mega airline job fun too.
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I tried to always fly the first leg with a new guy only because he would know what I preferred. Then he could do anything he wanted within reason. We had some very aggressive pilots and conservative pilots so it was polite to show him what you preferred. Most complied.
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Yeah i heard, its a very good book, ive been planning to get it, but at the mean time ive gotta cover my FCOMs first, and thanks very much for the advise and tips. As for the other guys who are talking 101% BS, your replies are a waste of space and my time, if you're going to keep criticizing me and others who are giving feedback regarding the questions in the first place, i suggest you go join a "waste my time" or "im too pro for amateurism" forum.
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misd-again: "The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet."
It was an A320
It was an A320
'stilton - w/b aircraft. We were obviously short of the hold short line. Radome short of the line. Nose gear is 8-10' behind us. Radome to nose gear is 20'.
During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.
Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."
With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet'
Misunderstood you, there are a few Pilots out there that think they are complying with the hold short line with everything forward of the nosegear hanging over it !
During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.
Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."
With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet'
Misunderstood you, there are a few Pilots out there that think they are complying with the hold short line with everything forward of the nosegear hanging over it !
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Bubbers44 really like your reply, and yes that kind of captain will really help and encourage his f/o to be a good capt some day,when his time comes. If we as f/o s get a capt who lets us learn from our mistakes ans well as teach us and build our confidence we would really appreciate it us like others have said not all fingers are alike , and most of them aren't there to help u out, so for a new f/o u have to figure things out the hard way initially.
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reuben
Too true....thats why i said, i just learn to accept it
Bubbers44 really like your reply, and yes that kind of captain will really help and encourage his f/o to be a good capt some day,when his time comes. If we as f/o s get a capt who lets us learn from our mistakes ans well as teach us and build our confidence we would really appreciate it us like others have said not all fingers are alike , and most of them aren't there to help u out, so for a new f/o u have to figure things out the hard way initially.
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How high were you actually? approx track miles when u were cleared to descent below 340?
Anyway.......since it's ATC "fault" cos they kept u high and restricted your speed...just inform the ATC that either u increase speed or due to the restricted ATC speed, you will be requesting extra track miles to lose height.
Depending on how high you are....increase speed might not be enough to regain profile. In that case, just request extra track miles to lose height. They won't force you to do an approach if you warn them you are too high.
Anyway.......since it's ATC "fault" cos they kept u high and restricted your speed...just inform the ATC that either u increase speed or due to the restricted ATC speed, you will be requesting extra track miles to lose height.
Depending on how high you are....increase speed might not be enough to regain profile. In that case, just request extra track miles to lose height. They won't force you to do an approach if you warn them you are too high.
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I can't recall exactly what was the track miles left, i did use my mental calculation 3Xtrack miles, due low speed and also crossed checked the yoyo, both indications were high, yoyo way off, my own calculation aprox 2000ft to kill, as for ATC's part, it didn't crossed my mind at that time about the option u mentioned, because i was too fixated on trying to kill height by my own, its the first time i encountered such a situation, being high and having to slow down and at the same time having to kill height. Many other seniors did told me that the ATC at our home base, does not do a very good job for separation as well in the past, but ive never got a taste of it till the other day. Well, from all the tips and advise and calling up another captain for advise, im starting to learn about how to deal with that situation.
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crappy situation, advise needed A320
2000' too high with 50nm to run is ok, but not with 15 to run... Don't know where you were so can't comment. It's obvious to me your stress was stressing the captain, not much you can do as you'll see through your career you'll fly with pilots actually scared of flying! As others have said, watch others fly and learn from them, mentally fly the a/c with them and see what they do differently and why, judge from the outcome, even take notes of your own shortcomings and think about them doing chair flying, or trying things out on your pc with flight simulators.
Don't worry we've all been there, but as for me, I'm proud to say I learn every day from everyone I fly with
Don't worry we've all been there, but as for me, I'm proud to say I learn every day from everyone I fly with
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I did a few observation flights already, infact, i requested extra observation flights and went for more than the original scheduled to the point the scheduler said i needed to town down, i did took down notes, i did radio calls, i did ask questions, i treasured every second i got during those times. It indeed helped me alot when i went for line training, it helped me sort out my paperwork, improved my scan flow, my SOP and much more, however, there is only so much you can get from the observation flights, out of all of it that ive done, most were high speed descents, and there wasn't a situation where i recently encountered, thats the sole reason why i couldn't cope up with the situation, its my first encounter. But like everyone else, im also learning everyday.
Honestly speaking, when i explained about the situation to everyone here, my main point was to explain the scenario as honest as possible and primarily to get information on how to solve the situation regarding being high and slow, and wether it was ok to deploy full speedbrakes with the VLS so near? not to crucify the captain. However, it seems that some people get offended by the scenario i described, and keep talking about the CRM part about it. For me, during that time, after being confused awhile, my mind was back into trying to get the bird down and configuration, also monitoring the traffic ahead on the ND. My mind was focused on the task, not so much about how the captain treated me.
But if people want to keep talking about the captain and making it a hot topic. Heres my take on that, firstly i really wished he would have just gave me a small reassurance to his decision before slamming my hand down the lever, like say "don't worry, its ok, just do it" or "Vls will drop as we decend, do it now", then i would have, no questions asked at that time, no doubts. However, what he did at that spilt second, didn't seem logic to me, therefore i was hesitant, it felt like he was ordering me to walk across a highway with speeding cars going by, if he would just told me "don't worry they will slow down to let you cross, cross now" i would have, what im saying is just an example of how i see it. Maybe it was my fault, not knowing the aircraft systems well enough, but im trying and learning.
As for my personal feelings towards the captain, a part of me is sad, a part of me is dissapointed by the way he trained me and a part of me is also dissapointed with my own ability to handle that situation at that time, but a captain will always be a captain, and i respect that, i will still salute him for his rank, he earned it, but i do not salute him as an individual, not anymore and whoever has a problem with that, im sorry, but thats how i feel and i believe i am entitled to my own personal feelings. As i said also, i try to put that part about the captain behind me, and i believe i have gathered enough info on this matter. Tonight, im heading to the academy with some of my batch mates to study, discuss about issues in flight and to practice the FMGS software. Once again, thank you everyone for their thoughts and opinion, and if possible i would like to put a full stop to this thread.
Honestly speaking, when i explained about the situation to everyone here, my main point was to explain the scenario as honest as possible and primarily to get information on how to solve the situation regarding being high and slow, and wether it was ok to deploy full speedbrakes with the VLS so near? not to crucify the captain. However, it seems that some people get offended by the scenario i described, and keep talking about the CRM part about it. For me, during that time, after being confused awhile, my mind was back into trying to get the bird down and configuration, also monitoring the traffic ahead on the ND. My mind was focused on the task, not so much about how the captain treated me.
But if people want to keep talking about the captain and making it a hot topic. Heres my take on that, firstly i really wished he would have just gave me a small reassurance to his decision before slamming my hand down the lever, like say "don't worry, its ok, just do it" or "Vls will drop as we decend, do it now", then i would have, no questions asked at that time, no doubts. However, what he did at that spilt second, didn't seem logic to me, therefore i was hesitant, it felt like he was ordering me to walk across a highway with speeding cars going by, if he would just told me "don't worry they will slow down to let you cross, cross now" i would have, what im saying is just an example of how i see it. Maybe it was my fault, not knowing the aircraft systems well enough, but im trying and learning.
As for my personal feelings towards the captain, a part of me is sad, a part of me is dissapointed by the way he trained me and a part of me is also dissapointed with my own ability to handle that situation at that time, but a captain will always be a captain, and i respect that, i will still salute him for his rank, he earned it, but i do not salute him as an individual, not anymore and whoever has a problem with that, im sorry, but thats how i feel and i believe i am entitled to my own personal feelings. As i said also, i try to put that part about the captain behind me, and i believe i have gathered enough info on this matter. Tonight, im heading to the academy with some of my batch mates to study, discuss about issues in flight and to practice the FMGS software. Once again, thank you everyone for their thoughts and opinion, and if possible i would like to put a full stop to this thread.
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Hi,
So always bear in mind that you descend way better at high flight levels than below 10.000feet!
So If you are high @ FL250, at a low speed, initially select your speed and put it up! Select 300kts, you will decend believe me!
Then, if you re still way too high! Use half Speed brakes!
Then if you re still WAY too high, use FULL speed brakes and disconnect the A/P because remember with the A/P ON, the speed brakes will only extend to half deflection!
If all of this is not enough... well think about other options!
-Request MORE track miles (if vectored)
-Ask to enter a hold
Bear in Mind ATC is there to help you out! If you are not comfortable with their vectors or the way they will shortcut you TELL THEM UNABLE!
I hope it helps!
Below 10.000feet, as stated in an above post, config 2, Non standard L/G down, you will "fall" like a stone!
All the best, and happy flying!
So always bear in mind that you descend way better at high flight levels than below 10.000feet!
So If you are high @ FL250, at a low speed, initially select your speed and put it up! Select 300kts, you will decend believe me!
Then, if you re still way too high! Use half Speed brakes!
Then if you re still WAY too high, use FULL speed brakes and disconnect the A/P because remember with the A/P ON, the speed brakes will only extend to half deflection!
If all of this is not enough... well think about other options!
-Request MORE track miles (if vectored)
-Ask to enter a hold
Bear in Mind ATC is there to help you out! If you are not comfortable with their vectors or the way they will shortcut you TELL THEM UNABLE!
I hope it helps!
Below 10.000feet, as stated in an above post, config 2, Non standard L/G down, you will "fall" like a stone!
All the best, and happy flying!
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Originally Posted by axelFR
Then if you re still WAY too high, use FULL speed brakes and disconnect the A/P because remember with the A/P ON, the speed brakes will only extend to half deflection!
Airman25 I truly believe when you have more time that HTBJ will sort out all of these problems with energy management on the approach for you---it's a very easy and approachable book and many an experienced jet pilot's 'Bible'...Mr. Davies has a great and slightly sarcastic sense of humor too...
I know you're busy with getting to grips with company procedures and such but please do try and read our Bible it may even make the procedures far less abstract ...
I know you're busy with getting to grips with company procedures and such but please do try and read our Bible it may even make the procedures far less abstract ...
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How about this for a start?
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...DESC-SEQ02.pdf
In addition your real "Bible" is the FCTM
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...DESC-SEQ02.pdf
In addition your real "Bible" is the FCTM
Last edited by SW1; 31st Aug 2012 at 18:05.
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axeIFR: i see, yeah i missed that point about AP off with speedbrakes full...point noted, but about bumping up my speed to 300kts, like i said, i couldn't do that time due traffic ahead, lower than me. Thanks for the tips and straight to the point summary.
Pugilistic: Should have ordered that book when i had the chance, gotta look for it again, its hard to get those kinda books in Malaysia unless ordered via internet, but a lot of seniors recommend it, must be really something that book. Thanks.
SW1: Wow...thanks for the link, good stuff!
Pugilistic: Should have ordered that book when i had the chance, gotta look for it again, its hard to get those kinda books in Malaysia unless ordered via internet, but a lot of seniors recommend it, must be really something that book. Thanks.
SW1: Wow...thanks for the link, good stuff!
Last edited by Airmen25; 31st Aug 2012 at 18:41.