Wizzair CEO telling crews to fly fatigued
Look no further than Air France for an horrific safety record. Long distance commutes from the south of the country, paid for by AF prior to a long haul duty. This with their pilots attitude and behaviours that would not be tolerated in a UK airline, the ability to get things so very wrong, so many times. What a history.
All this.... and self inflicted.
All this.... and self inflicted.
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Into the heart of the mountain
Age: 74
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CEO's should pay attention that pilots, especially the very professional ones, will not forget the last two years. Things are rapidly changing sometimes. Like I mentioned before, some CEO's are arrogant sociopaths. Hope they will learned that people are important for any each industry, by hard way.
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem with fatigue is that it’s almost impossible to prove beyond doubt. We all know that fatigue was the main cause of the Flydubai crash in Rostov, but the data recordings show a pretty significant pilot error, so that goes down as the official cause.
As for that rat Varadi, he’s spent the last month blaming everyone but himself for the state his airline is in. At first denying his airline was even affected by the delays going on in the U.K. and around Europe, and now seeking to blame anyone from “ATC shortages”, “supply chain issues”, airports “not guaranteeing commercial agreements” and now pilots and cabin crew going fatigued.
The fact is that nobody wants to work for him. After booking the entire conference hall at the Crowne Plaza in Crawley for a cabin crew recruitment event, three people turned up. One was rejected, the other two turned it down.
The other fact is that everything he has done since leaving the Eastern European market has been a catastrophic failure. Dumping capacity into Gatwick with over 200 seats per flight in the lowest fare brackets and then having to pay €300 to each because they can’t crew the flights is just another failure he can add to his CV. The share price has tanked significantly more than any other airline in the past year, how long until the magic money tree runs dry?
As for that rat Varadi, he’s spent the last month blaming everyone but himself for the state his airline is in. At first denying his airline was even affected by the delays going on in the U.K. and around Europe, and now seeking to blame anyone from “ATC shortages”, “supply chain issues”, airports “not guaranteeing commercial agreements” and now pilots and cabin crew going fatigued.
The fact is that nobody wants to work for him. After booking the entire conference hall at the Crowne Plaza in Crawley for a cabin crew recruitment event, three people turned up. One was rejected, the other two turned it down.
The other fact is that everything he has done since leaving the Eastern European market has been a catastrophic failure. Dumping capacity into Gatwick with over 200 seats per flight in the lowest fare brackets and then having to pay €300 to each because they can’t crew the flights is just another failure he can add to his CV. The share price has tanked significantly more than any other airline in the past year, how long until the magic money tree runs dry?
Last edited by T28B; 10th Jun 2022 at 12:47. Reason: formatting fixed
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The man talks of "reputational damage" - I think he has managed to damage this all by himself.
There are many suspect practices being actioned under a post pandemic umbrella. I heard from a colleague in his UK airline is that min. rest of 10 hours is becoming common at home basing (with a 12:46 previous duty) by use of hotel instead of sleeping at home base location - legal?. Many airlines I think are looking to use the EASA FTL directive as a bottom line to meet and not as a guidance as I think EASA intended?.
There are many suspect practices being actioned under a post pandemic umbrella. I heard from a colleague in his UK airline is that min. rest of 10 hours is becoming common at home basing (with a 12:46 previous duty) by use of hotel instead of sleeping at home base location - legal?. Many airlines I think are looking to use the EASA FTL directive as a bottom line to meet and not as a guidance as I think EASA intended?.
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Florida
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Pilot's Commute to the "Office"
I know a pilot, long since retired, who flew for Delta for many years. I was always amazed at the true length of his work day. He started his airline career with Northeast Airlines flying FH-227s across New England... Keene, Lebanon, Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, Worcester etc. Northeast merged into Delta circa 1972, and he progressed through several types with Delta. When Delta eventually closed its BOS pilot base, he remained in his suburban Boston home.
He eventually flew B763s out of JFK, most commonly to SVO. He'd leave his home to catch a "shuttle " flight from BOS to LGA, shooting for the 11AM or noon flight. A taxi from LGA to JFK to prepare for his international departure to SVO, about a 5PM departure. There were commonly hour long taxi times to take off. An 8-9 hour flight and a landing at SVO at was about 3AM for his body clock. There was a crew rest seat in the rear of the business class cabin and a third pilot, but the defacto length of his day was scary.
My larger point is how often a pilot's commute adds a considerable number of hours to his day.
He eventually flew B763s out of JFK, most commonly to SVO. He'd leave his home to catch a "shuttle " flight from BOS to LGA, shooting for the 11AM or noon flight. A taxi from LGA to JFK to prepare for his international departure to SVO, about a 5PM departure. There were commonly hour long taxi times to take off. An 8-9 hour flight and a landing at SVO at was about 3AM for his body clock. There was a crew rest seat in the rear of the business class cabin and a third pilot, but the defacto length of his day was scary.
My larger point is how often a pilot's commute adds a considerable number of hours to his day.
I know a pilot, long since retired, who flew for Delta for many years. I was always amazed at the true length of his work day. He started his airline career with Northeast Airlines flying FH-227s across New England... Keene, Lebanon, Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, Worcester etc. Northeast merged into Delta circa 1972, and he progressed through several types with Delta. When Delta eventually closed its BOS pilot base, he remained in his suburban Boston home.
He eventually flew B763s out of JFK, most commonly to SVO. He'd leave his home to catch a "shuttle " flight from BOS to LGA, shooting for the 11AM or noon flight. A taxi from LGA to JFK to prepare for his international departure to SVO, about a 5PM departure. There were commonly hour long taxi times to take off. An 8-9 hour flight and a landing at SVO at was about 3AM for his body clock. There was a crew rest seat in the rear of the business class cabin and a third pilot, but the defacto length of his day was scary.
My larger point is how often a pilot's commute adds a considerable number of hours to his day.
He eventually flew B763s out of JFK, most commonly to SVO. He'd leave his home to catch a "shuttle " flight from BOS to LGA, shooting for the 11AM or noon flight. A taxi from LGA to JFK to prepare for his international departure to SVO, about a 5PM departure. There were commonly hour long taxi times to take off. An 8-9 hour flight and a landing at SVO at was about 3AM for his body clock. There was a crew rest seat in the rear of the business class cabin and a third pilot, but the defacto length of his day was scary.
My larger point is how often a pilot's commute adds a considerable number of hours to his day.
The CEO can't help it. Considering where he comes from, as they have been under the Jack boot of the Soviets for far too long, to think otherwise. When the inhabitants of a country are bullied, a lot become bullies themselves. Not their fault.
Nuf said.
Nuf said.
Last edited by RichardJones; 10th Jun 2022 at 12:50.
I understand the point you are trying to make. But over in Europe we simply do not have such commutes as the norm. Most airlines require their crew to be within 60-90 minutes standby at their assigned hub. This sort of commuting is impossible at low cost carriers in Europe during the working week.
I do know that at least one outfit a handful of years back management started to look hard at what some of the commuting by air cohort were doing and as a result guidance
was issued, in some cases warnings were given and in at least one extreme case sanctions were applied.
FWIW the sort of commutes lakes1952 describes still potentially exist in europe/UK, especially with some of the legacy Long Haul operators which may not have a strict live within x minutes rule.
I do know that at least one outfit a handful of years back management started to look hard at what some of the commuting by air cohort were doing and as a result guidance was issued, in some cases warnings were given and in at least one extreme case sanctions were applied.
I do know that at least one outfit a handful of years back management started to look hard at what some of the commuting by air cohort were doing and as a result guidance
was issued, in some cases warnings were given and in at least one extreme case sanctions were applied.
Another bully CEO
Release date: 21/09/2017
Michael O’Leary, the Chief Executive of Ryanair, today said that pilot fatigue as a result of flying in short-haul operations does not exist, and that pilots fly a maximum of 18 hours a week. On both points we believe he is wrong.
Brian Strutton, BALPA General Secretary, said: “Fatigue is endemic in all kinds of commercial flying. To suggest that pilot fatigue in short-haul operations can only occur because of the pilot’s activities outside of work is, in our view, wrong.
“BALPA is worried about what message this is giving to pilots, and what effect this management attitude has on safety culture.
“Pilots are legally-bound to report their fatigue as it can have dangerous effects on pilot performance. Ryanair appears to be telling its pilots that if they report, their attitude will be that it’s the pilot’s own fault. This is not a good way to engender an open reporting culture.
“Additionally, the 18-hour figure that Mr O’Leary has come up with does not seem to have any basis in reality. Pilots’ flying and duty hours are rightly regulated in order to avoid fatigue. Current EU-level regulations limit pilots’ duty hours to 60 per week, and flying hours to 100 in 28 days.
“If Ryanair cared to share their pilots’ rosters with us we’d be happy to analyse them for fatigue.
“It is the responsibility of the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) to regulate Ryanair. I think they should look carefully at these comments by Mr O’Leary and decide whether they could give rise to concerns about the safety culture in that airline.”
Michael O’Leary, the Chief Executive of Ryanair, today said that pilot fatigue as a result of flying in short-haul operations does not exist, and that pilots fly a maximum of 18 hours a week. On both points we believe he is wrong.
Brian Strutton, BALPA General Secretary, said: “Fatigue is endemic in all kinds of commercial flying. To suggest that pilot fatigue in short-haul operations can only occur because of the pilot’s activities outside of work is, in our view, wrong.
“BALPA is worried about what message this is giving to pilots, and what effect this management attitude has on safety culture.
“Pilots are legally-bound to report their fatigue as it can have dangerous effects on pilot performance. Ryanair appears to be telling its pilots that if they report, their attitude will be that it’s the pilot’s own fault. This is not a good way to engender an open reporting culture.
“Additionally, the 18-hour figure that Mr O’Leary has come up with does not seem to have any basis in reality. Pilots’ flying and duty hours are rightly regulated in order to avoid fatigue. Current EU-level regulations limit pilots’ duty hours to 60 per week, and flying hours to 100 in 28 days.
“If Ryanair cared to share their pilots’ rosters with us we’d be happy to analyse them for fatigue.
“It is the responsibility of the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) to regulate Ryanair. I think they should look carefully at these comments by Mr O’Leary and decide whether they could give rise to concerns about the safety culture in that airline.”
Last edited by T28B; 10th Jun 2022 at 12:45. Reason: formatting fixed
Not an airline but I cannot help but to remember the discussion I had with a Private Jet Management company that thought I was being unreasonable to refuse 36 hours between rests! Their arguement being that I had not flown for 3 days so I have aquired so much rest I could just go and go and go?
On a serious point these managers simply have no understanding of these issues. They see the FTL's as a hinderence, nothing more.
As I write this I am reminded of another situation... Moscow to Far East to Sydney, one crew! When I asked the idiot that accepted it he said "I need a job."
We are our own worst emenies?
On a serious point these managers simply have no understanding of these issues. They see the FTL's as a hinderence, nothing more.
As I write this I am reminded of another situation... Moscow to Far East to Sydney, one crew! When I asked the idiot that accepted it he said "I need a job."
We are our own worst emenies?
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last edited by am111; 10th Jun 2022 at 15:39. Reason: 33 instead of 38
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Up North….
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I may have misread your tone, but in case it wasn’t sarcastic, your maths might be a little too simple there. It is in the busy summer months when you are working close to your max rolling duty limits and going into discretion because of delays beyond your control that you will easily exceed 17.3 flying hours. The past 3 days alone my roster has me flying 33 hours. That’s not including the scheduled or delayed time on the ground. Granted, we may get a respite in a few months in winter but that’s hardly very safety conscious.
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Laniākea
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand the point you are trying to make. But over in Europe we simply do not have such commutes as the norm. Most airlines require their crew to be within 60-90 minutes standby at their assigned hub. This sort of commuting is impossible at low cost carriers in Europe during the working week.
Seriously, we have commuters all over the place. Ryanair, EasyJet, LH Regional..... barely a fraction of these guys live where they work.
Edited: Yea, in the working week ya'll need a dump, otherwise it won't work. But then again who is seriously relocating?
Yeah bases for some locos also are bargaining chips as well, if a better deal comes along it's good bye. Better to stay put and commute in many cases i think the reasoning goes...
Just an observation - strangely enough almost every time there's talk of fatigue somebody pops up with "ah but the commuters"....somebody has even managed to hit double tops upthread by getting Air France and commuters in the same message...
That particular discussion has been had multiple times but often lacks specific detail but there's often just enough said to provide ammunition to help those who seem to like to think the job can't be that hard or that long days aren't a problem..............
Being an ex- Long Hauler (and commuter by air, so shoot me now) and not really understanding the concept of earlies and lates 'cos it's always early or late somewhere I'd be interested to see what sort of rosters Wizz crews were expected to work on a normal day.
That particular discussion has been had multiple times but often lacks specific detail but there's often just enough said to provide ammunition to help those who seem to like to think the job can't be that hard or that long days aren't a problem..............
Being an ex- Long Hauler (and commuter by air, so shoot me now) and not really understanding the concept of earlies and lates 'cos it's always early or late somewhere I'd be interested to see what sort of rosters Wizz crews were expected to work on a normal day.