A Sukhoi superjet 100 is missing
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Demo flights can be... also fun...
Distracting is an all encompassing word... distracting from what?. The plane's captain was an experienced test pilot, used to regimen in order to accomplish his tasks. As a lifelong military pilot I can appreciate how the captain felt to 'get away' from the daily regimen of test flying. IMHO he got way too loose, disregarded basic safety, flight planning and even crew coordination, if the reports in Russian media can be believed.
I would not pretend to know how to demonstrate a civilian airliner, but even a tactical military transport, with PAX aboard, should be treated more like an airliner.
I would not pretend to know how to demonstrate a civilian airliner, but even a tactical military transport, with PAX aboard, should be treated more like an airliner.
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Karel X : There was a customer sitting in the cockpit.
Any text (picture) without a context; is (perhaps) a pretext.
Who, what, where, when, why and how; who is the picture of (customer, maintenance person, another pilot or crewmember, avionics salesman, executive with Sukhoi, Government or Business VIP)?
What are they doing when the picture was taken, taxiing for takeoff or ground testing some piece of equipment?
Where and when was the picture taken; prior to takeoff on the last flight or on the production ramp back "home" a year ago?
Why was this person on the flight deck? And the follow up question; was the person on the flight deck normal operations for such a flight and in compliance with company and governmental regulations? Just because the flight deck is almost completely off limits in some very uptight western nations, does not mean the rest of the world has to follow the same bad example when the local conditions are different.
How did this picture happen to be taken?
I do not think there is any problem with you or anybody else posting a picture, I would just caution that the rest of us might refrain from drawing any firm conclusions as to the circumstances leading up to the cause(s) of this accident from the really nice picutre posted just a few entries prior.
Who, what, where, when, why and how; who is the picture of (customer, maintenance person, another pilot or crewmember, avionics salesman, executive with Sukhoi, Government or Business VIP)?
What are they doing when the picture was taken, taxiing for takeoff or ground testing some piece of equipment?
Where and when was the picture taken; prior to takeoff on the last flight or on the production ramp back "home" a year ago?
Why was this person on the flight deck? And the follow up question; was the person on the flight deck normal operations for such a flight and in compliance with company and governmental regulations? Just because the flight deck is almost completely off limits in some very uptight western nations, does not mean the rest of the world has to follow the same bad example when the local conditions are different.
There already was a third person in the cocpit - a potential customer. Reportedly he dont disturb the pilots, only from time to time he asked some question, about consumption of fuel etc. No wishes for risky maneuver or sightseeing. Hypothetical navigator shoul be a forth person in little cocpit.
I do not think there is any problem with you or anybody else posting a picture, I would just caution that the rest of us might refrain from drawing any firm conclusions as to the circumstances leading up to the cause(s) of this accident from the really nice picutre posted just a few entries prior.
Last edited by Northbeach; 13th Jun 2012 at 01:32.
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That individual in the cockpit jumpseat may have been a qualified pilot for one of the air carriers planning on purchasing the SU-100. I know in the past I have sat jumpseat on demonstration flights, the company wants a pilot up front to ask questions pertinent to line operations and would know what to look for as far as performance. Last i checked this was considered perfectly legal and within the guidelines of most manufacturer's policies; though my knowledge on this matter only really applies to the US and Canada.
Last edited by Island-Flyer; 13th Jun 2012 at 01:49.
he plane's captain was an experienced test pilot, used to regimen in order to accomplish his tasks. As a lifelong military pilot I can appreciate how the captain felt to 'get away' from the daily regimen of test flying. IMHO he got way too loose, disregarded basic safety, flight planning and even crew coordination, if the reports in Russian media can be believed.
As a veteran documentary cameraman I can attest that even specialists and experts get distracted by the demands and pressures of a photo or video shoot.
Weapons experts, fire specialists, race drivers to name a few have put my life at risk by "over egging it"
Pilots are not immune, outside of war zones, aerial photography claims the lives of more cameramen than any other activity, with the majority of accidents involving pilot error.
Yep, think about the Airbus low alt pass and not enough smash/power to pull up in order to miss the trees. Experienced pilot, but didn't seem to understand all the "protections" and such that was touted for the 'bus.
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Any confirmation that Pelabuhan Ratu resort was in flight plan?
SSJ - Google Maps
Rencana Terbang:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki memutar di atas Pelabuhan Ratu dan kembali ke Halim Perdanakusuma dalam 28 menit.
- Rabu pukul 14.36: Seharusnya pesawat sudah mendarat kembali di Halim Perdanakusum
Rute yang Diambil Pilot:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki.
- Rabu pukul 14.21: Pilot Aleksandr Yablontsev meminta izin kepada Air Traffic Controller (ATC) Halim Perdanakusuma untuk turun ke ketinggian 6.000 kaki (1.829 meter). Izin diberikan karena pesawat terpantau berada di atas kawasan latihan Lanud Atang Sendjaja, Bogor, sekitar 12 kilometer dari area Gunung Salak
- Rabu pukul 14.33: Pilot kembali minta izin untuk berbelok (banking) ke kanan. Namun percakapan mendadak terputus dan pesawat tiba-tiba hilang dari pantauan radar.
Terbang Gembira Berujung Duka
SSJ - Google Maps
Rencana Terbang:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki memutar di atas Pelabuhan Ratu dan kembali ke Halim Perdanakusuma dalam 28 menit.
- Rabu pukul 14.36: Seharusnya pesawat sudah mendarat kembali di Halim Perdanakusum
Rute yang Diambil Pilot:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki.
- Rabu pukul 14.21: Pilot Aleksandr Yablontsev meminta izin kepada Air Traffic Controller (ATC) Halim Perdanakusuma untuk turun ke ketinggian 6.000 kaki (1.829 meter). Izin diberikan karena pesawat terpantau berada di atas kawasan latihan Lanud Atang Sendjaja, Bogor, sekitar 12 kilometer dari area Gunung Salak
- Rabu pukul 14.33: Pilot kembali minta izin untuk berbelok (banking) ke kanan. Namun percakapan mendadak terputus dan pesawat tiba-tiba hilang dari pantauan radar.
Terbang Gembira Berujung Duka
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Any confirmation that Pelabuhan Ratu resort was in flight plan?
SSJ - Google Maps
Rencana Terbang:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki memutar di atas Pelabuhan Ratu dan kembali ke Halim Perdanakusuma dalam 28 menit.
- Rabu pukul 14.36: Seharusnya pesawat sudah mendarat kembali di Halim Perdanakusum
Rute yang Diambil Pilot:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki.
- Rabu pukul 14.21: Pilot Aleksandr Yablontsev meminta izin kepada Air Traffic Controller (ATC) Halim Perdanakusuma untuk turun ke ketinggian 6.000 kaki (1.829 meter). Izin diberikan karena pesawat terpantau berada di atas kawasan latihan Lanud Atang Sendjaja, Bogor, sekitar 12 kilometer dari area Gunung Salak
- Rabu pukul 14.33: Pilot kembali minta izin untuk berbelok (banking) ke kanan. Namun percakapan mendadak terputus dan pesawat tiba-tiba hilang dari pantauan radar.
SSJ - Google Maps
Rencana Terbang:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki memutar di atas Pelabuhan Ratu dan kembali ke Halim Perdanakusuma dalam 28 menit.
- Rabu pukul 14.36: Seharusnya pesawat sudah mendarat kembali di Halim Perdanakusum
Rute yang Diambil Pilot:
- Rabu pukul 14.12: Take-off dari Halim Perdanakusuma menuju Pelabuhan Ratu, dengan ketinggian 10.000 kaki.
- Rabu pukul 14.21: Pilot Aleksandr Yablontsev meminta izin kepada Air Traffic Controller (ATC) Halim Perdanakusuma untuk turun ke ketinggian 6.000 kaki (1.829 meter). Izin diberikan karena pesawat terpantau berada di atas kawasan latihan Lanud Atang Sendjaja, Bogor, sekitar 12 kilometer dari area Gunung Salak
- Rabu pukul 14.33: Pilot kembali minta izin untuk berbelok (banking) ke kanan. Namun percakapan mendadak terputus dan pesawat tiba-tiba hilang dari pantauan radar.
But instead, the captain requested descent to 6,000 ft and was approved that altitude because it was believed to be in the Bogor training area about 12 km from Mt Salak. At 14:33 the captain requested to make a right turn and after that, contact was lost.
I can't believe someone has already written a book about this crash?
but a bugger to get to on the roads there
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What's bothered me with this resort - it's first time I heard that second demo flight that day was more than (like first one) just takeoff, some orbit in the Bogor training area and back to Halim. Way to this resort is right through the mountains - look at maps.
Kulverstukas
Way to this resort is right through the mountains - look at maps.
Way to this resort is right through the mountains - look at maps.
Not saying that it was like that, though.
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Last edited by jcjeant; 19th Jun 2012 at 01:50.
Psychophysiological entity
I wonder to what sickening depths people will sink to spread the blame to someone on the ground.
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Anyone know if the Superjet has hard or soft g limits in its flight control system?
It would be a bear to find out that you need 2.8 g to miss terrain (through faulty planning of course), and to have the system limit you 2.5 g.
It would be a bear to find out that you need 2.8 g to miss terrain (through faulty planning of course), and to have the system limit you 2.5 g.
Psychophysiological entity
As I suggested way back,
However, I it does sound as though there wouldn't have been time even if the aircraft had been fully aerobatic. But you never know. With that load it might have survived 5g and with the speeds mentioned recently, it might have been possible to pull it onto its back. With that guy's background he might well have got away with what happened next.
Just a thought really, about letting the crew have the final say when all else has failed.
`
With the speeds and times we've suggested there could well have been just a few seconds of utter disbelief as it became apparent there was no opening ahead. No real time to do anything in an aircraft that refuses to be pointed at the stars.
Just a thought really, about letting the crew have the final say when all else has failed.
`
Last edited by Loose rivets; 19th Jun 2012 at 19:30.
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This report from Pravda from last week appears to have been missed
However it could just be the Russian authorities passing the buck...
Sukhoi Superjet crash: Pilots deactivated onboard systems - English pravda.ru
"Russia's Sukhoi Superjet-100 crashed in Indonesia because of a whole complex of reasons, including the human factor, investigators said. The specialists studied the information that they could obtain from the flight recorders and came to conclusion that there was a potential customer staying in the cockpit shortly before the aircraft slammed into the mountain. However, the customer was not interfering into the actions of the crew. The person was only interested in the technical performance of the airplane.
A source close to investigation told RIA Novosti news agency on conditions of anonymity that the Terrain Awareness and Warning System was active during the demonstration flight. The pilots, investigators believe, received visual and audio signals warning of the mountain slope ahead. However, they ignored the signals because they were certain that they were flying above a valley, at a safe altitude. An Indonesian flight control officer approved a descent from 10 to 6 thousand feet. The pilots could not see the mountain on time because of thick clouds.
The crew supposedly received a signal from another onboard signal. The system said that the aircraft was flying low above the ground and prompted the extension of the landing gear. Being at a loss about the relief of the area, the commander decided to deactivate the automatic equipment to descend independently. "It could be possible that the crewmembers were certain until the very last moment that they were flying above a valley," the source said.
The pilots contacted the Indonesian flight control officer to find out whether it was possible to continue the flight as before. However, the officer did not respond. The Indonesian side had problems with either communication or location, which may often happen in mountainous areas.
Officials with Indonesian aviation authorities said that the Russian plane had all documents for demonstration flights in Jakarta. No technical malfunction was reported during the first demonstration flight of the passenger jetliner. The plane was fuelled with high-quality fuel accordingly, investigators said.
Russia's Sukhoi Superjet-100 crashed into the vertical slope of Salak Mount on May 9th. There were 45 people, including eight Russians, on board. The crash left no survivors. "
However it could just be the Russian authorities passing the buck...
Sukhoi Superjet crash: Pilots deactivated onboard systems - English pravda.ru
"Russia's Sukhoi Superjet-100 crashed in Indonesia because of a whole complex of reasons, including the human factor, investigators said. The specialists studied the information that they could obtain from the flight recorders and came to conclusion that there was a potential customer staying in the cockpit shortly before the aircraft slammed into the mountain. However, the customer was not interfering into the actions of the crew. The person was only interested in the technical performance of the airplane.
A source close to investigation told RIA Novosti news agency on conditions of anonymity that the Terrain Awareness and Warning System was active during the demonstration flight. The pilots, investigators believe, received visual and audio signals warning of the mountain slope ahead. However, they ignored the signals because they were certain that they were flying above a valley, at a safe altitude. An Indonesian flight control officer approved a descent from 10 to 6 thousand feet. The pilots could not see the mountain on time because of thick clouds.
The crew supposedly received a signal from another onboard signal. The system said that the aircraft was flying low above the ground and prompted the extension of the landing gear. Being at a loss about the relief of the area, the commander decided to deactivate the automatic equipment to descend independently. "It could be possible that the crewmembers were certain until the very last moment that they were flying above a valley," the source said.
The pilots contacted the Indonesian flight control officer to find out whether it was possible to continue the flight as before. However, the officer did not respond. The Indonesian side had problems with either communication or location, which may often happen in mountainous areas.
Officials with Indonesian aviation authorities said that the Russian plane had all documents for demonstration flights in Jakarta. No technical malfunction was reported during the first demonstration flight of the passenger jetliner. The plane was fuelled with high-quality fuel accordingly, investigators said.
Russia's Sukhoi Superjet-100 crashed into the vertical slope of Salak Mount on May 9th. There were 45 people, including eight Russians, on board. The crash left no survivors. "
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Incredible Speed
So - two ways to interpret this:
"IATCA president I Gusti Ketut Susila said the distance between the plane’s last known coordinates from Mt. Salak was 14 kilometers. At 290 knots or 450 kph, the pilot only had 9 seconds to avoid the cliff."
Either the Sukhoi was winning the speed contest at 5600 km/hour for that 9 seconds, or there was a lot more time from the last known coordinates. Of course the last known coordinates are not particularly useful in knowing when the occupants of the flight deck saw the holes in the cheese lining up.
Perhaps a translation error.
"IATCA president I Gusti Ketut Susila said the distance between the plane’s last known coordinates from Mt. Salak was 14 kilometers. At 290 knots or 450 kph, the pilot only had 9 seconds to avoid the cliff."
Either the Sukhoi was winning the speed contest at 5600 km/hour for that 9 seconds, or there was a lot more time from the last known coordinates. Of course the last known coordinates are not particularly useful in knowing when the occupants of the flight deck saw the holes in the cheese lining up.
Perhaps a translation error.