Take off with snow on wing
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aerobat 77, I will defer to your greater knowledge of Piper Senecas & Seminoles, but please, stop making an ass of yourself & taking the rest of us for a bunch of imbeciles, by continuing with the facade that this video showed anything other than, a criminal dereliction of his duty of care to his passengers by the PIC.
This horse-manure about maybe it was de-iced /maybe they checked what was under the snow/it blew off, what was the problem ? etc etc is becoming a bit tedious.
It is (I sincerely hope
) quite obvious that you have no practical experience, & pretty much b*gger all knowledge, regarding Winter Ops/Swept wing Public Transport jets, so please, "Walter Mitty" yourself onto a more suitable thread where some unfortunate may actually take you seriously.
You are talking Tosh
This horse-manure about maybe it was de-iced /maybe they checked what was under the snow/it blew off, what was the problem ? etc etc is becoming a bit tedious.
It is (I sincerely hope
) quite obvious that you have no practical experience, & pretty much b*gger all knowledge, regarding Winter Ops/Swept wing Public Transport jets, so please, "Walter Mitty" yourself onto a more suitable thread where some unfortunate may actually take you seriously.You are talking Tosh
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fact is that the wing was clear at rotation
CptKris, I didn't know about that one but I was taught that ice must be cleared and NEVER to fly when rain-ice is present or forecast. (No de-icing on a C152 or a DA40TDi
)
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"Me thinks not. trying to look at what a mess it would be trying to put up 180 pax and 6 crew in hotel beds...that weren't available"
This is BS too.
It's well known that in the case of over booking at SVO
(been there, done that too thanks SU!).
It shows you don't know RU.
SVO, DME and VKO all have special accomodation available* as well as all the main MSK RLY terminals for precisely this contingency.
SVO is now a modern place.
*Applies to LED also btw, so no excuses possible.
In a country with 11 time zones, & 1000s of nuclear weapons would you expect otherwise...
talking of which....
This is BS too.
It's well known that in the case of over booking at SVO
(been there, done that too thanks SU!).
It shows you don't know RU.
SVO, DME and VKO all have special accomodation available* as well as all the main MSK RLY terminals for precisely this contingency.
SVO is now a modern place.
*Applies to LED also btw, so no excuses possible.
In a country with 11 time zones, & 1000s of nuclear weapons would you expect otherwise...
talking of which....
DOVE
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Take off with snow on wing
For each mission there is a purpose, with which every flight operation is calibrated.
For example, I quote an old ex-Sabena flight instructor, I made the transition to the B-737 300 on the simulator with.
He included in his lessons one where you had to take off with a single engine ... ("Who knows?! It may happen one day that you have to depart from an airport in a rush due to war).
A very different case is the one of the flight to be carried from A to B with a load of paying passengers who are entitled to maximum security, regularity, comfort and economy.
I will never forget one of those winter nights when we were about to leave from an airport in Southern Europe, while a snowstorm raged.
In addition to the usual preparatory operations we had to:
- Get in line for the de-icing
- Wait, if necessary, for the runway in use and taxiways to be cleared from snow.
- Based on the estimated time of completion of the above procedures, request a slot for departure.
- Calculating the result of all of this to decide on the passenger boarding time
(It is now clear that the punctuality of flight had gone).
It's obvious that it was wishful thinking the synchronization of all the above operations .
If the runway had been cleared, the plane was not yet being deiced / anti-iced, or vice versa, or the slot provided was expired and reassigned half an hour later, and then we had to go back to the starting point.
If the passengers had boarded, we had to invite them (risking a complaint for kidnapping) to stay on board for not losing the priority acquired; maybe we prayed the flight attendants to serve a refreshment.
Finally everything was ready to start (there was a tyrannical "holdover time"), but not without having alerted the Purser not to hesitate to advise if he saw some snow on the wings.
And then (correct me if I'm wrong or if something has changed):
There were extraordinary procedures to apply: special operations, "Cold Weather Operations" and "T.O. and Landing on Contaminated Rwys ".
They had to be performed, with the contribution of PF and PNF; a flight controls test at the beginning and at the end of taxi, a maneuver of extension and retraction of the flaps / slats, the activation of Engine Anti-ice (with engine run-up every ten minutes to remove any ice formed on the intake of the engines and on PT2 probes), and the preselection of the Airfoil anti-ice, after start.
After rotation we were expected to cycle the “retraction / extension / retraction” of the under carriage in order to shake away the slush.
It's clear that avoiding all of this fuss made life much more easy, and I confess that more than once I found myself in the embarrassing
position to explain to some of my passenger: "This guy did not perform the deicing, while we are having such a delay ... "
Invariably I said: "Safety is our first goal."
In conclusion that crew has:
- Put at risk their own lives, those of their passengers, and perhaps those of others on the ground
- Risked to produce an immeasurable economic damage
- Put a stain on the good name and honor of their company, their colleagues and the pilots all over the world.
- Given a bad example of unruliness and airmanship especially to those of us who are joining this wonderful profession.
Finally.
Extract from the question data base for the issue of a ULM pilot license:
-The frost has not been removed from the ULM surfaces before flight:
A) It does not create problems, as it is swept away with the speed increase in the take-off run.
B) may cause a take-off with an angle of incidence and an IAS below the normal values
C) causes a variation of the curvature of the airfoil, with a consequent increase in lift during take-off
D) may affect the safety of the flight since take-off trajectory.
"Last bat not least," I quote my Navigation Code:
The commander of a flight must ensure the perfect airworthiness... the correct supply of fluids ... the complete absence of any contaminant from surfaces of the aircraft.
Fly Safe
DOVE
For example, I quote an old ex-Sabena flight instructor, I made the transition to the B-737 300 on the simulator with.
He included in his lessons one where you had to take off with a single engine ... ("Who knows?! It may happen one day that you have to depart from an airport in a rush due to war).
A very different case is the one of the flight to be carried from A to B with a load of paying passengers who are entitled to maximum security, regularity, comfort and economy.
I will never forget one of those winter nights when we were about to leave from an airport in Southern Europe, while a snowstorm raged.
In addition to the usual preparatory operations we had to:
- Get in line for the de-icing
- Wait, if necessary, for the runway in use and taxiways to be cleared from snow.
- Based on the estimated time of completion of the above procedures, request a slot for departure.
- Calculating the result of all of this to decide on the passenger boarding time
(It is now clear that the punctuality of flight had gone).
It's obvious that it was wishful thinking the synchronization of all the above operations .
If the runway had been cleared, the plane was not yet being deiced / anti-iced, or vice versa, or the slot provided was expired and reassigned half an hour later, and then we had to go back to the starting point.
If the passengers had boarded, we had to invite them (risking a complaint for kidnapping) to stay on board for not losing the priority acquired; maybe we prayed the flight attendants to serve a refreshment.
Finally everything was ready to start (there was a tyrannical "holdover time"), but not without having alerted the Purser not to hesitate to advise if he saw some snow on the wings.
And then (correct me if I'm wrong or if something has changed):
There were extraordinary procedures to apply: special operations, "Cold Weather Operations" and "T.O. and Landing on Contaminated Rwys ".
They had to be performed, with the contribution of PF and PNF; a flight controls test at the beginning and at the end of taxi, a maneuver of extension and retraction of the flaps / slats, the activation of Engine Anti-ice (with engine run-up every ten minutes to remove any ice formed on the intake of the engines and on PT2 probes), and the preselection of the Airfoil anti-ice, after start.
After rotation we were expected to cycle the “retraction / extension / retraction” of the under carriage in order to shake away the slush.
It's clear that avoiding all of this fuss made life much more easy, and I confess that more than once I found myself in the embarrassing
position to explain to some of my passenger: "This guy did not perform the deicing, while we are having such a delay ... "
Invariably I said: "Safety is our first goal."
In conclusion that crew has:
- Put at risk their own lives, those of their passengers, and perhaps those of others on the ground
- Risked to produce an immeasurable economic damage
- Put a stain on the good name and honor of their company, their colleagues and the pilots all over the world.
- Given a bad example of unruliness and airmanship especially to those of us who are joining this wonderful profession.
Finally.
Extract from the question data base for the issue of a ULM pilot license:
-The frost has not been removed from the ULM surfaces before flight:
A) It does not create problems, as it is swept away with the speed increase in the take-off run.
B) may cause a take-off with an angle of incidence and an IAS below the normal values
C) causes a variation of the curvature of the airfoil, with a consequent increase in lift during take-off
D) may affect the safety of the flight since take-off trajectory.
"Last bat not least," I quote my Navigation Code:
The commander of a flight must ensure the perfect airworthiness... the correct supply of fluids ... the complete absence of any contaminant from surfaces of the aircraft.
Fly Safe
DOVE
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My translation from the Russian website "Butter Bread’s Laws." (z-bb.ru). Here's Brad's laws for this case (my apologies for the translation)
Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft
The first low of Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft.
The biggest problem of an icy airplane take off is that a lot more planes take off successfully than unsuccessfully.
The second low of Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft.
Takeoff on the icy jet is the same as Russian roulette, if you pressed the trigger and the shot is not heard, it only means that the next press the trigger PROBABILITY SHOT increases.
The third low of Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft.
If you decided to risk make sure that you risk only to themselves.
Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft
The first low of Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft.
The biggest problem of an icy airplane take off is that a lot more planes take off successfully than unsuccessfully.
The second low of Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft.
Takeoff on the icy jet is the same as Russian roulette, if you pressed the trigger and the shot is not heard, it only means that the next press the trigger PROBABILITY SHOT increases.
The third low of Butter Bread’s Lows of deicing aircraft.
If you decided to risk make sure that you risk only to themselves.
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Amazing what one, of little imagination, can assume from a "user-name".
Well, I don't put PA34/PA42 on my profile, but 17400 inc 13200 command on B737 does perhaps justify me calling "Tosh" when it patently is.
But then, I didn't post a pretty picture above the clouds, so guess I am just a "dreamer"
Well, I don't put PA34/PA42 on my profile, but 17400 inc 13200 command on B737 does perhaps justify me calling "Tosh" when it patently is.
But then, I didn't post a pretty picture above the clouds, so guess I am just a "dreamer"
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@up_down_n_out
Originally Posted by up_down_n_out
"Me thinks not. trying to look at what a mess it would be trying to put up 180 pax and 6 crew in hotel beds...that weren't available"
This is BS too.
It's well known that in the case of over booking at SVO
(been there, done that too thanks SU!).
This is BS too.
It's well known that in the case of over booking at SVO
(been there, done that too thanks SU!).
Read again. I wasn't talking about this Aeroflot cowboys in SVO, but the decision made by a colleague of mine in Enontekio, Finnish Lapland. Read my post before commenting, please
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SLF using aeroflot
I have family in Russia so I tend to do the LHR to SVO or DME trip quite a lot of times.
I wont comment on the aircraft's airworthiness as 1. I'm not a pilot and 2. I dont need to. If pilots like Captplaystation say its unsafe I'll take their word for it.
What I will comment on is that the video clip scared me. How badly did it scare me? Enough for me to want to fly on any other airline than Aeroflot. SLF power!
If anyone in Aeroflot is listening then you have a lot of PR work to do to get the likes of me flying with you again. If Aeroflot's idea of PR is to set loose someone in this site with the express intent of disinformation, then think again. It compounds the problem.
I wont comment on the aircraft's airworthiness as 1. I'm not a pilot and 2. I dont need to. If pilots like Captplaystation say its unsafe I'll take their word for it.
What I will comment on is that the video clip scared me. How badly did it scare me? Enough for me to want to fly on any other airline than Aeroflot. SLF power!
If anyone in Aeroflot is listening then you have a lot of PR work to do to get the likes of me flying with you again. If Aeroflot's idea of PR is to set loose someone in this site with the express intent of disinformation, then think again. It compounds the problem.
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I don't know about this situation because I wasn't there (although the amount of snow seems a little bit much). I can assure you however that spraying hot liquid on DRY POWDER snow below -10 degrees is worse than leaving it be. Take a broom to it, or in a quick turn just a tactile inspection is all you need. I have 40 Canadian winters under my belt, 20 of them as a pilot...trust me.
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peterpuck, what hot liquid? And what -10? Here are relevant METARs based on the info in the youtube comments:
METAR UUEE 011300Z 26003MPS 5000 BR BKN007 OVC013 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 25510145 75510145
METAR UUEE 011330Z 27002MPS 5000 BR OVC016 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145
METAR UUEE 011400Z 30003MPS 5000 BR OVC017 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145
METAR UUEE 011300Z 26003MPS 5000 BR BKN007 OVC013 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 25510145 75510145
METAR UUEE 011330Z 27002MPS 5000 BR OVC016 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145
METAR UUEE 011400Z 30003MPS 5000 BR OVC017 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145
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Far out. I fly a lightie in a warm/hot climate where ice will never be an issue to my flying, but even in this case my instructor drilled into me right from my first or second lesson "NEVER take of with snow, ice, dirt, lots of bugs or ANY other contaminant on the wing"
If it was me sitting in the seat of the guy filming this video I would have made them let me off the plane, f*** how ever much I paid for the damned ticket. However if I was in this situation two years ago before I started flying I probably wouldn't have thought much of it at all. Scary......
If it was me sitting in the seat of the guy filming this video I would have made them let me off the plane, f*** how ever much I paid for the damned ticket. However if I was in this situation two years ago before I started flying I probably wouldn't have thought much of it at all. Scary......
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Hi! I am a pilot from Aeroflot. I would like to add some comments about this video. Many Aeroflot pilots and I were very shocked after watching this video. We have been discussing it on our forum as well, and I think it will not be unpunished.
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For the sake of the companies reputation/future success, one has to hope you are proved correct.
It is to be hoped the punishment may also include the management idiots that responded to the complaint with assurances that "all is OK".
The damage they caused to your companies reputation is just as deep as that inflicted by the pilots who flaunted the rules.
It is to be hoped the punishment may also include the management idiots that responded to the complaint with assurances that "all is OK".
The damage they caused to your companies reputation is just as deep as that inflicted by the pilots who flaunted the rules.
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A particularly apt and fitting punishment would be for them (pilots and company directors of AFL) to visit that freezing field in Tiumenskaya oblast, then meet the next of kin, and friends/family of the UT ex-pilots.
Just to make sure they got the message.
Don't you think?
Just to make sure they got the message.
Don't you think?
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vordmeafl
*
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Hi! I am a pilot from Aeroflot. I would like to add some comments about this video. Many Aeroflot pilots and I were very shocked after watching this video. We have been discussing it on our forum as well, and I think it will not be unpunished.
*
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Hi! I am a pilot from Aeroflot. I would like to add some comments about this video. Many Aeroflot pilots and I were very shocked after watching this video. We have been discussing it on our forum as well, and I think it will not be unpunished.
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It`s a special aeroflot pilots` chat site (in russian)
forum.aflcrew.com •
forum.aflcrew.com •
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Vordmeafl,
I think it is very good news that some of your Airline pilots have noticed this video and are discussing it.
In no way do I believe in generalization of such a dangerous act,(ie all aeroflot pilots are that reckless) but it is your duty to get to the bottom of it.
A picture of the aircraft in the beginning of the rolling take off placed in your main base briefing room would be a good start;-) with a note...the aviation world knows about it;-)
On another note, my significant other used your airline,,,please do something about the CA service..terrible apparently,she said it made the luftwaffe look like angels...she said Qatar is the best.
I think it is very good news that some of your Airline pilots have noticed this video and are discussing it.
In no way do I believe in generalization of such a dangerous act,(ie all aeroflot pilots are that reckless) but it is your duty to get to the bottom of it.
A picture of the aircraft in the beginning of the rolling take off placed in your main base briefing room would be a good start;-) with a note...the aviation world knows about it;-)
On another note, my significant other used your airline,,,please do something about the CA service..terrible apparently,she said it made the luftwaffe look like angels...she said Qatar is the best.
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Sabenaboy,
Now you know my finances,guess the first ones are on me.
Perhaps we would get along if we could have a beer together, but I don't get to China very often . BTW, can we swap salaries, please
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However if I was in this situation two years ago before I started flying I probably wouldn't have thought much of it at all.
Vordmeafl - it's good to hear from you. Please don't think we assume you are all tarred with the same brush. The problem is that this pilot has brought your company into serious disrepute as have the people in the press department who apparently condoned the pilot's actions.