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Old 25th Feb 2004, 07:43   #121 (permalink)
 
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While I can't comment on most of your comparisons cos I don't have any time in Schwiezers I can say that the comments about Robbos having to be treated gently from a mechanical point of view is absolutely incorrect.

If you get see the hammering they get when used for mustering and general station (aka "ranch" to USA'ers) work in the Australian outback you would never think that of a robbie again. Their reliability in rough conditions is why they are the most commonly used helicopter for mustering. If they were breaking down all the time they would get replaced pretty quick with something else because down-time is lost income no matter how cheap the initial aquisistion cost is.
I am in agreement with you - from a mechanical standpoint, as long as the helicopter is only hitting air, the R.22 is excellent - and measurably more reliable than the Schweizer, especially on the little, annoying things.

I was referring to when the ship hits the ground in the hands of an unpolished pilot, over and over again. The Schweizer was built to take that kind of abuse, the Robbie wasn't, nor does it suffer it well. When students are doing full-downs in the R.22, it isn't a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN. That's when down-time pops up - replacing the subframe and tailboom on the R.22 takes awhile.
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Old 25th Feb 2004, 16:54   #122 (permalink)
 
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300 which ever way you manipulate the brain it will say 300 as the sensible training helicopter.
It was designed as a trainer and that's what it's best at.
Robbo dig your grave you have not the attibutes for being a training machine.

I have flown both and I have no doubts as to which is suoerior...... the 300.

Rumours that Robbos are cheaper is not true. See other topic which undermines the 'cheap' theory.

Go for the 300.
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Old 25th Feb 2004, 21:56   #123 (permalink)

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Schweizer for me!

When I was learning to fly, I had to make the decision whether to go for R22 or S300.

The S300 was a good 30% more expensive per flying hour (not rotor start to rotor stop) but I had also heard that there would be a good chance that I would pass in fewer hours - hence be just as cost effective in the long run!

Sounds like I made the right decision

However, I will never know whether it would have taken me longer to learn in a Robbo !!

Cheers

Whirlygig
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Old 25th Mar 2004, 20:28   #124 (permalink)
 
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r22? orsome other scary machine

lets face it learning to fly helis is daunting enough without strapping an r22 to your ass and wildly throwing yourself about at hover practice ( is the cyclic actually connected to anything?)
i have spent 18 months have done 19 hrs of training but as for the rest of my 40 hours so far have played with 206s gazelle hughes 500 and even ec120s, but alas due to usual financial restraints when it comes back to the training its back in the 22
pretty soon were getting a 300cbi and ill have my own cyclic and not have to share it with my instructor!!! i also have 17 hrs i cant even book because they were private sites al on turbines.
what say we all club together hire a 47g and spend a day havin a bit of fun?
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Old 25th Mar 2004, 21:14   #125 (permalink)
 
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The Bell 47 is a great machine, tough, easy to fly and you have to use all of the controls. As a training machine I don't think it can be beaten. Bell 47 time is recognised and respected. Try a flight, it will bring a smile to your face.

Chopperpilot47
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Old 26th Mar 2004, 01:50   #126 (permalink)
 
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Turning off the governor in the 22 and using manual throttle control inputs in no way prepares you for a 300 or 47.

I have found that the correlation between the collective and the engine on the R22 is such that you have to wind the throttle off when raising the collective to prevent an overspeed. Try doing that in a 47!!

Coversion to a 206 is easier if you have flown a 47. You are used the physical size, hydraulic controls and auto characteristics. 22 drivers tend to overcontrol the cyclic much more initially.

Suprisingly though I found the 22 an easier platform for aerial photo work - nice tail rotor authority.
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Old 13th May 2004, 03:42   #127 (permalink)
 
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Training: R22 or Bell47 ?

A good friend of mine convinced me to do the PPL(H) i've long been dreaming of doing. Since i've already got some Airplane ratings, i can save some money doing the Helicopter license.

I looked around for some places in my area that give training and i found one school with a R22 and another school with a B47. Cost per hour is same.

I don't have any immediate plans to go beyond the PPL(H). So, given that, what helicopter would you recommend to train on?

I kinda prefer the R22 because it looks better and it has a governer, but i dislike it because of its 'control stick'. On the otherhand, the B47 has a 'real stick' which i'd prefer. Downside though is that it doesn't have a governer. Is it really that much more difficult when you don't have a governer?


Thanks for any input!
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Old 13th May 2004, 04:54   #128 (permalink)
 
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You'll get various answers, from "R22's are deathtraps" to "Bell 47s are too old".

There's no right answer. Sure, the Bell gets you used to working the throttle all the time as there's no governor, it's got more rotor inertia so autorotations are, I'm told, easier. But it's a sloooow cruise machine - not important when training, but once you have your licence it can take longer to get where you're going.

The R22 is quicker (I think), autorotations are definitely much more exciting, there's loads of them about, and generally most of the problems are well documented (as on the Bell) so if you read up and are well taught, there should be few surprises.

Best bet - take a trial lesson in both, preferably at the same school, and see which you prefer.
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Old 13th May 2004, 07:24   #129 (permalink)

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I fly a Schweizer which, like the Bell, has no governer. Got it wrong a couple of times but my instructor was there to correct me; and now it is not an issue or a problem so, no, it is not more difficult without a governer and, given you would not know any different, I doubt whether you would find it any harder

Personally, out of the two choices you have, I'd go for the Bell - there are threads galore about the merits of different helicopters in which to train - you'll just have to make a judgment.

Cheers

Whirlygig
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Old 13th May 2004, 09:27   #130 (permalink)
 
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My advice is decide which one you want to fly once you have your licence and then train on that one.

How do you decide which one you want to fly post-PPL training?

Interested about the equivalence in cost - from where I am the R22 will be less expensive than a Bell 47. Wherever you are, I would have thought that operating costs of an R22 will be less than B47

What do you want to carry with you?
If it is more than two moderate people and tooth brush, this favours 47
How much do you weigh?
If you are heavy and want to fly with other heavy people, the R22 will have zero/limited endurance
Do you actually want to go somewhere (Cruise speed)?
R22 is significantly quicker than B47
Are you going to mix fixed wing & rotary once you have both licences? (In fact, I bet you end up doing more rotary, unless you have long trips to make)
If you are, then be particularly careful about keeping REALLY current in heles (engine failures) AND favour the B47
If you will want to fly/hire from various locations there will be much more choice of R22s than B47s
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Old 13th May 2004, 12:17   #131 (permalink)
 
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At least this debate isn't PC vs MAC (R22 vs 300CBi)... that conversation is getting old. I have to agree with the folks above, your answer will likely depend on what your future intensions are. If it is for personal use and fun... I'd learn on the B47 first (that's just my opinion). If you are thinking about a possible career in the future... I'd learn on the R22 first because it is likely you will need to build time by teaching for a while. Regardless, pick one type that is convenient and economical for your location and stay with that until you've completed your PPL. After about 20-30 hours of private flying, start looking and learning on other types (just for the experience).
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Old 13th May 2004, 20:10   #132 (permalink)
 
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Thanks guys! I think i'll go with the B47.
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Old 13th May 2004, 21:40   #133 (permalink)
 
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At least the 47 sounds like a helicopter
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Old 14th May 2004, 05:55   #134 (permalink)
 
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Cost per hour is same?

No contest - Bell 47.


FL
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Old 14th May 2004, 12:27   #135 (permalink)
ground effect
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b47

And what about this.....

Statistics show that you are up to ten times more likely to pick up a Korean War army nurse (remember hotlips hoolahan from MASH??) flying a bell47 than you would flying an R22.

After all, what self respecting female would be caught dating a robbie driver!!!!
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Old 14th May 2004, 12:46   #136 (permalink)

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Quote:
If you are thinking about a possible career in the future... I'd learn on the R22 first
Rather bizarrely, I was given exactly the opposite advice; if I had any inkling that I might wish to pursue a commercial licence, learn on the S300 (no governer, proper cyclic) and get an R22 rating later.

Quote:
After all, what self respecting female would be caught dating a robbie driver!
Reminds me of spoof lonely hearts ad my so-called mates put in the paper on my behalf:

"Wanted: helicopter pilot for nights of passion. Send picture of helicopter"

Ground effect - it's a fair point, well made

Cheers

Whirlygig
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Old 15th May 2004, 01:41   #137 (permalink)
 
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Thumbs up

Since mattpilot is from Oklahoma, the SFAR applies. He'll need 200 hours in the R-22 to instruct (300 if you are insured by Pathfinder). Most U.S. training schools do primary instruction in the R-22.
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 13:59   #138 (permalink)
 
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Talking Best learner ?

Seems to be one of 3 'bestest' craft to learn the skill in - R22, Schweizer or Enstrom F28. Knowing what you do, which do you think is best to learn in and ultimately progress from ? Pros and cons appreciated over and above the price.

Cheers,

BG
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 05:11   #139 (permalink)
 
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First, if you are going to become a professional pilot, it doesn't matter which one you learn in - after 200 hours, you'll have the same level of expertise.

The R22 has a bit of a stranglehold on the training industry due to the low cost of entry. It is not a superior trainer in any way (in fact it is deficient in some key areas), but they have built a bit of a closed-loop system with the Pathfinder insurance deal. Therefore, you are most likely to find a teaching job if you did your training in an R22, but no matter what the "Robovia's Witnesses" preach, you gain no special skills flying the R22. However, especially in the UK, it is what you'll most likely end up flying.

The S300 types are tough and forgiving trainers - no suprise since that's what they were specifically designed for. The key factors for training safety and robustness are high rotor inertia, fully-articulated rotor system, long-stroke dampers on the skid gear, and almost unlimited visibility from the cockpit. In my mind it is the best training ship out there. It is not the best personal helicopter - that's what the R22 was designed to be.

The 280/28 series is a bit of a different animal. Much more like a "big helicopter" in flight. If you can afford it, it will be a less jarring transition from the Enstrom to a 206, or 350 or whatever. The Enstrom is a very safe ship, but the turbocharged engine makes it a somewhat tempermental trainer - students overboosting, overspeeding and not properly cooling down lead to a lot of stuck valves (lucky the 280 autos really well).

So train in whatever you can afford. In the end, your CFI, and the mechanics who maintain the aircraft will have a much bigger effect on your training then what type of helicopter you are flying anyway.
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Old 13th Oct 2004, 18:29   #140 (permalink)
 
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Which Helicopter for PPL

I've recently decided to book a PPL training course, but have not yet decided which helicopter to use for the training. The options are the R22 or the Schweizer. The later is about 20 per hour more expensive, but I've had some advice that its the better of the two for learning in. Can any one give me any further guidance on the matter?
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