Review into North Sea offshore helicopter operations announced by CAA
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HC,
Many Years ago the US FAA was convinced by an Airline that having to meet Over Water Survival Equipment Requirements on New York to San Juan, Puerto Rico passenger runs was un-needed as there had never been a ditching or any emergency that could have caused a ditching and the routing took the aircraft only about an hour offshore.
The FAA agreed, the Airlines removed all the Life Rafts and Jackets. That allowed them to top off with added passengers.
Two weeks later, a FE managed to shut down all three engines on a Boeing 727 by mis-managing the Fuel System. Fortunately, the Crew managed to figure out what had happened and were able to get the Engines re-started before hitting the Water.
Your kind of Logic, similar to the concept of "Very Remote Probability" can have some serious repercussions when the Holes line up on the proverbial Cheese.
Many Years ago the US FAA was convinced by an Airline that having to meet Over Water Survival Equipment Requirements on New York to San Juan, Puerto Rico passenger runs was un-needed as there had never been a ditching or any emergency that could have caused a ditching and the routing took the aircraft only about an hour offshore.
The FAA agreed, the Airlines removed all the Life Rafts and Jackets. That allowed them to top off with added passengers.
Two weeks later, a FE managed to shut down all three engines on a Boeing 727 by mis-managing the Fuel System. Fortunately, the Crew managed to figure out what had happened and were able to get the Engines re-started before hitting the Water.
Your kind of Logic, similar to the concept of "Very Remote Probability" can have some serious repercussions when the Holes line up on the proverbial Cheese.
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HC
We've been here before. My view of safety is proactive not reactive. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. STASS has been used by the military on a few occasions and it has saved lives. The maritime military world isn't a great deal different to the North Sea. A ditched aircraft with a twisted frame, your door won't jettison, the aircraft rolls over, you have to get out of the cabin. Try doing that on one breath. I have used STASS and know that I would rather have it with the option to plan my escape. In the big scheme of things it doesn't cost a lot. For those who don't want to do the training or can't do it then they can carry on without it. Most objections to STASS centre around the training, but as it used to say on the poolside wall at Yeovilton, "self determination now!" One life saved is worth the investment.
We've been here before. My view of safety is proactive not reactive. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. STASS has been used by the military on a few occasions and it has saved lives. The maritime military world isn't a great deal different to the North Sea. A ditched aircraft with a twisted frame, your door won't jettison, the aircraft rolls over, you have to get out of the cabin. Try doing that on one breath. I have used STASS and know that I would rather have it with the option to plan my escape. In the big scheme of things it doesn't cost a lot. For those who don't want to do the training or can't do it then they can carry on without it. Most objections to STASS centre around the training, but as it used to say on the poolside wall at Yeovilton, "self determination now!" One life saved is worth the investment.
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If this can be done for a Pressurized Jet Aircraft....why not for a helicopter and make it a jettison able escape window as well. Time to think outside the box maybe?
EBACE: Fokker proposes giant window to Boeing Business Jets - 5/21/2014 - Flight Global
EBACE: Fokker proposes giant window to Boeing Business Jets - 5/21/2014 - Flight Global
BB and cyclic. Of course one should address known possible survival issues following ditching, however one should also keep in mind a sense of priority. Surely it is far better to concentrate on issues that are known to have caused fatalities and likely to do so in the future, rather than put efforts into the "remotely possible". But instead of concentrating on pilot competence issues, which seem to be a recurring theme in many loss of life accidents and "near misses", you are banging on about STASS. Is it just a smokescreen?
But instead of concentrating on pilot competence issues, which seem to be a recurring theme in many loss of life accidents and "near misses", you are banging on about STASS. Is it just a smokescreen?
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Seems you are banging on about something that has never been fixed in the history of Aviation. Pilot's are not very clever people as they continue to kill themselves and other people while destroying aircraft in the same old tried and true methods.
Since we have had questionable success in avoiding the need for Life Saving equipment like Rafts, Jackets, Exposure Suits, Sarbe's, Epirbs, Jettisonable Windows and Doors, safety harnesses, In Floor and Exit Lighting, and all sorts of other useful gear......why not simply accept that Breathing Gear will also save Lives when that fateful day or night happens and add that bit of kit to the long list of improvements made so far?
Since we have had questionable success in avoiding the need for Life Saving equipment like Rafts, Jackets, Exposure Suits, Sarbe's, Epirbs, Jettisonable Windows and Doors, safety harnesses, In Floor and Exit Lighting, and all sorts of other useful gear......why not simply accept that Breathing Gear will also save Lives when that fateful day or night happens and add that bit of kit to the long list of improvements made so far?
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Question for all
If it was your child/partner sitting in a non-window seat of a full machine would you prefer them to have a compressed air escape set including a demand valve, or a rebreather?
If it was your child/partner sitting in a non-window seat of a full machine would you prefer them to have a compressed air escape set including a demand valve, or a rebreather?
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I would prefer them to have whatever gives them the best chance of escape. If that bit of kit happens to be a re-breather, then great. If it's compressed air, then that's great too.
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Norway differs with UK CAA answers.
Norway shuns UK offshore helicopter safety rule changes - Oil and Gas News
Norway shuns UK offshore helicopter safety rule changes - Oil and Gas News
I do not think this article gives a good representation of the official Norwegian view. What has been said earlier is just that CAA-Norway does not agree 100% with everything in the report. And that the actions and recommendations need to be reviewed before a decision is made on what to do.
The apparent lack of full support and enthusiasm for the actions may be because:
The apparent lack of full support and enthusiasm for the actions may be because:
- some have already been implemented or tried before
- some are not relevant
- some are probably too complicated/huge for a small authority like the Norwegian to take on
- slightly different views with respect to where the highest risks are and how to treat them
- last but not least, there is no feeling of urgency on the Norwegian side. Could it be that the lack of accidents has given us a (false) sense of safety - and that a touch of complacency has set in?
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Transport Committee - Second Report - Offshore helicopter safety
House of Commons - Offshore helicopter safety - Transport Committee
House of Commons - Offshore helicopter safety - Transport Committee
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A full independent public inquiry into offshore helicopter safety, prompted amongst other things by a failure to acknowledge the role commercial pressure plays in impacting safety related decisions.
How long have they got?
How long have they got?
Roll out of Cat A Emergency Breathing System (EBS).
Contrary to what Kawijet posed on 5 april on this thread the current re-breathers are NOT Cat. A.
I personnally already questioned very much if one would be able to apply the current re-breathers under water and clear the water out of the submerged mouthpiece/valve while pushing the valve to transfer to re-breathing. This would spill quite an amount of air from your lungs which would therefore not be available for re-breathing. (I know the unit itself also "adds" 4 liters air from a presurized bottle but overall i think you would lose too much air by clearing).
At least this has never been teached to me this way during training. During my last refresher, I did got some water in my re-breather and I can tell you that is quite frightening if you gulp water instead of air!
Not to mention that during my first training I did not gently squeezed the red knob but pulled the complete valve from the mouth piece.
Leaving me with an forced open mouth (by the mouth piece) in an ditching helitrainer!
That was due to a non secured hose connection on the trainer re-breather but I imagine one could pull it off under real stress as well.
Anyway the solution has been approved, announced and is now being rolled-out:
From Helihub 15th July:
EASA and UK CAA approve world?s first Category A Emergency Breathing System | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Note worthy is the sequence of roll out for the UK as announced by Survitec: Sumburgh, Norwich, Aberdeen.
Today the company I work for (we are 3rd party contractors) got an announcement from Dutch Shell (NAM):
New Cat A Emergency Breather System will be implented for flights from Den Helder 1st September 2014! So even earlier as in the UK!!
1,5 hour dry training sessions will be made available at Den Helder Airport from 28th of July only for the month August.
These training sessions are Free (course paid by Shell)
Hours presumably to be paid by contractors as it is outside check-in hours.
2 to 4 training sessions a day to match departing or arriving rotating crews.
Non rotational crew to be planned-in where possible.
From 1st September only training in the certified training centra,
From another source I already heared that they will NOT be able to meet the start of training for next Monday July 28th.
Questions on which I hope to get answers soon:
- Only Shell on Dutch side? (I haven't heared from my other clients/
O&G companies yet and the training session roster which I have seen
seems to match only Shell/NAM flights from Den Helder)
- When will training be available at training centres and what will be training costs?
Cleverly arranged during Dutch holiday month August.
How should I get al my guys through training?
We have little offshore work coming month, but the more for september!
In the announcement was a link to a very clear video from Survitec.
http://www.stepchangeinsafety.net/newsevents/news/news.cfm/newsid/162
I wonder how they will fill in the remaining 70 minutes of the training session.
SLB
I personnally already questioned very much if one would be able to apply the current re-breathers under water and clear the water out of the submerged mouthpiece/valve while pushing the valve to transfer to re-breathing. This would spill quite an amount of air from your lungs which would therefore not be available for re-breathing. (I know the unit itself also "adds" 4 liters air from a presurized bottle but overall i think you would lose too much air by clearing).
At least this has never been teached to me this way during training. During my last refresher, I did got some water in my re-breather and I can tell you that is quite frightening if you gulp water instead of air!
Not to mention that during my first training I did not gently squeezed the red knob but pulled the complete valve from the mouth piece.
Leaving me with an forced open mouth (by the mouth piece) in an ditching helitrainer!
That was due to a non secured hose connection on the trainer re-breather but I imagine one could pull it off under real stress as well.
Anyway the solution has been approved, announced and is now being rolled-out:
From Helihub 15th July:
EASA and UK CAA approve world?s first Category A Emergency Breathing System | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Note worthy is the sequence of roll out for the UK as announced by Survitec: Sumburgh, Norwich, Aberdeen.
Today the company I work for (we are 3rd party contractors) got an announcement from Dutch Shell (NAM):
New Cat A Emergency Breather System will be implented for flights from Den Helder 1st September 2014! So even earlier as in the UK!!
1,5 hour dry training sessions will be made available at Den Helder Airport from 28th of July only for the month August.
These training sessions are Free (course paid by Shell)
Hours presumably to be paid by contractors as it is outside check-in hours.
2 to 4 training sessions a day to match departing or arriving rotating crews.
Non rotational crew to be planned-in where possible.
From 1st September only training in the certified training centra,
From another source I already heared that they will NOT be able to meet the start of training for next Monday July 28th.
Questions on which I hope to get answers soon:
- Only Shell on Dutch side? (I haven't heared from my other clients/
O&G companies yet and the training session roster which I have seen
seems to match only Shell/NAM flights from Den Helder)
- When will training be available at training centres and what will be training costs?
Cleverly arranged during Dutch holiday month August.
How should I get al my guys through training?
We have little offshore work coming month, but the more for september!
In the announcement was a link to a very clear video from Survitec.
http://www.stepchangeinsafety.net/newsevents/news/news.cfm/newsid/162
I wonder how they will fill in the remaining 70 minutes of the training session.
SLB
SLB - have you tried contacting NOGEPA for advice? NOGEPA
I suspect that the UK training-providers will be maxed-out at the moment as they try to process those of us bound for the UKCS.
I'll let you know on Monday. If the fog lifts.
I suspect that the UK training-providers will be maxed-out at the moment as they try to process those of us bound for the UKCS.
I wonder how they will fill in the remaining 70 minutes of the training session?
Diginagain,
Still a lot of fog since one month ago?
I did my training last week at Den Helder airport.
Actually quite a good training.
With 11 participants we were ready in 1 hour. We all think we are generally better off with this new CA-EBS.
One disadvantage not mentioned in the video but believed to be a point by all the participants:
I already had put the question out to NOGEPA before you suggested.
They have responded:
For the moment it is only NAM/SHELL (with DanCopter) who have chosen to make the change for all Dutch NAM platforms.
They expected that Wintershall and Centrica might be the first ones to follow as they too have some operations which are flown from both sides. But they use CHC and NHV. I believe the operators who use CHC have some kind of helicopter sharing agreement which makes it more difficult to change over?
Nothing formal and no signs that Dutch government will take over this to be enforced on Dutch side as well.
The courses are now also given by Falck and STC-KNRM in Netherlands for € 75.
Hats-off for such a quick implementation.
When I wrote my previous post on this thread I did not know that training in the UK was already in full swing. I thought they only just had the new approved device. In mean time about the number of the core crews of UK personnel has had the course.
http://www.offshoreenergytoday.com/26100-offshore-workers-trained-with-emergency-breathing-system/
How much contractors/non-core-crew would there be in UK? 50.000-75.000??
Should be do-able with on-going training rate.
SLB
Still a lot of fog since one month ago?
I did my training last week at Den Helder airport.
Actually quite a good training.
- Verbal instruction in Dutch supported by power point presentation.
- Video (Same as linked on this thread before) (in English)
- Dry training
With 11 participants we were ready in 1 hour. We all think we are generally better off with this new CA-EBS.
One disadvantage not mentioned in the video but believed to be a point by all the participants:
- The possibility of un-observed loss of air when the purge button is slightly pushed. This might happen in a cramped heli when you fall asleep.
I already had put the question out to NOGEPA before you suggested.
They have responded:
For the moment it is only NAM/SHELL (with DanCopter) who have chosen to make the change for all Dutch NAM platforms.
They expected that Wintershall and Centrica might be the first ones to follow as they too have some operations which are flown from both sides. But they use CHC and NHV. I believe the operators who use CHC have some kind of helicopter sharing agreement which makes it more difficult to change over?
Nothing formal and no signs that Dutch government will take over this to be enforced on Dutch side as well.
The courses are now also given by Falck and STC-KNRM in Netherlands for € 75.
Hats-off for such a quick implementation.
When I wrote my previous post on this thread I did not know that training in the UK was already in full swing. I thought they only just had the new approved device. In mean time about the number of the core crews of UK personnel has had the course.
http://www.offshoreenergytoday.com/26100-offshore-workers-trained-with-emergency-breathing-system/
How much contractors/non-core-crew would there be in UK? 50.000-75.000??
Should be do-able with on-going training rate.
SLB
Still a lot of fog since one month ago?
Loss of capability due to inadvertant purging was covered - "Don't do it!" was the response. We'll see. Given where the second-stage sits it shouldn't be an issue. More worrying would be pax pressing the purge just to check that it works!
How much contractors/non-core-crew would there be in UK? 50.000-75.000??
So in the Netherlands and UK your EBS training can be completed in a classroom without in-water pool training?
As an experienced diver, the upside down experience in cold water without a mask or nose clips was a surprise that I'm thankful I got to try in a controlled environment.
Doesn't Cougar provide all passengers with diving masks? Are the NS pilots going to stash one in their flight bags?
As an experienced diver, the upside down experience in cold water without a mask or nose clips was a surprise that I'm thankful I got to try in a controlled environment.
Doesn't Cougar provide all passengers with diving masks? Are the NS pilots going to stash one in their flight bags?
So in the Netherlands and UK your EBS training can be completed in a classroom without in-water pool training?
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We'll be given wet-training with the new EBS and lifejacket when we next do our survival refresher course. There simply isn't the capacity to get everyone dunked with the new kit within the timescale we've been given.
As a non-diver who trained to use the HEED/STASS and found it a very uncomfortable learning process, I cannot for one moment imagine anyone using a SCUBA-type appartus for the first time, in anger, following a classroom briefing!