VNAV only approach
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jeppesson are not the only company that produce plates.
The OP is correct that there are plates out there with "VNAV" minima. After he/she posted it I went and had a look and found the Naviair plate for EKSB RNAV (GNSS) RWY 14 showed exactly that. So the OP should be thanked for raising a good point because the replies in this thread show that not a single poster was aware of this fact.
The OP is correct that there are plates out there with "VNAV" minima. After he/she posted it I went and had a look and found the Naviair plate for EKSB RNAV (GNSS) RWY 14 showed exactly that. So the OP should be thanked for raising a good point because the replies in this thread show that not a single poster was aware of this fact.
Last edited by oggers; 28th Feb 2017 at 08:54.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly i do not have any plates for EKSB or WITK as both are not included in our LIDO route manual. However, for normal RNAV (GNSS) approaches the VNAV/LNAV minimum is depicted as VNAV with a smaller font RNAV (GNSS) above that, whereas the LNAV only one is depicted as LNAV. One could surmise that the first one would be VNAV only, however, as the approach is RNAV to begin with it has to be flown in LNAV/Managed.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oggers:
It is reasonable to conclude that Jeppesen wouldn't arbitrarily add minimums that are not on state source (AIP). So, the question becomes: why would Navair exclude some minimums that are on state source?
Jeppesson are not the only company that produce plates.
The OP is correct that there are plates out there with "VNAV" minima. After he/she posted it I went and had a look and found the Naviair plate for EKSB RNAV (GNSS) RWY 14 showed exactly that. So the OP should be thanked for raising a good point because the replies in this thread show that not a single poster was aware of this fact.
The OP is correct that there are plates out there with "VNAV" minima. After he/she posted it I went and had a look and found the Naviair plate for EKSB RNAV (GNSS) RWY 14 showed exactly that. So the OP should be thanked for raising a good point because the replies in this thread show that not a single poster was aware of this fact.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Denti:
As you know, unlike Jeppesen, LIDO doesn't chart every IFR airport in the world. I don't believe they chart EKSB. So, that means the Jeppesen charts are probably the only that exist for that airport. Of course, they could provide tailored charts ($$$$) for some operator at EKSB.
Sadly i do not have any plates for EKSB or WITK as both are not included in our LIDO route manual. However, for normal RNAV (GNSS) approaches the VNAV/LNAV minimum is depicted as VNAV with a smaller font RNAV (GNSS) above that, whereas the LNAV only one is depicted as LNAV. One could surmise that the first one would be VNAV only, however, as the approach is RNAV to begin with it has to be flown in LNAV/Managed.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess Navair charts are somewhat tailored to what their customers need, same as LIDO. LIDO only charts those airports that any of their custormers need, and only include those minima that are needed as well, or at least needed by some. We never have LPV minima on ours, but for some reason the LTS minima although we are not approved for that. As far as i know only very few production airline aircraft are LPV capable as standard equipment, no need to include that then.
very few production airline aircraft are LPV capable as standard equipment
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aterpster
Well, Naviair are the state source:
"Naviair is by the Danish Transport Authority designated as AIM-office (Aeronautical Information Management) for Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland."By inspection, it is apparent that all the lines of minima on the Jepp plate are also on the Naviair plate: LPV, LNAV/VNAV, LNAV, CIRCLING. The issue seems to be that what we are used to seeing listed as LNAV/VNAV, Naviair have called VNAV (albeit there is a 2' difference between the Jepp LNAV/VNAV DA and the Naviair 'VNAV' DA that I assume to be due to 'rounding'). Also according to the notes on the Naviair plate the "VNAV" minima are NA below -20º indicative of an APV with Baro-VNAV approach (of course if you have SBAS you will use the LPV minima).
The use of this VNAV term could simply be a mistake. Having leafed through the Danish AIP, EKSB is the only place where you find it, but it is also on the plate for RNAV 32. At other places the Naviar plates do indeed have an LNAV/VNAV line of minima. It could conform to some weird and wonderful convention that is lost on me. There also exist "RNAV" minima and "GPS" minima where one would expect LNAV.
Make of this what you will, but I reiterate the only reason we are aware of it is because ASHTAM was 100% correct in stating that such a thing as "VNAV" minima existed on some charts.
BTW, why on that Jepp plate is the LNAV minima listed as a DA(H) when it should be an MDA(H)
It is reasonable to conclude that Jeppesen wouldn't arbitrarily add minimums that are not on state source (AIP). So, the question becomes: why would Navair exclude some minimums that are on state source?
"Naviair is by the Danish Transport Authority designated as AIM-office (Aeronautical Information Management) for Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland."
The use of this VNAV term could simply be a mistake. Having leafed through the Danish AIP, EKSB is the only place where you find it, but it is also on the plate for RNAV 32. At other places the Naviar plates do indeed have an LNAV/VNAV line of minima. It could conform to some weird and wonderful convention that is lost on me. There also exist "RNAV" minima and "GPS" minima where one would expect LNAV.
Make of this what you will, but I reiterate the only reason we are aware of it is because ASHTAM was 100% correct in stating that such a thing as "VNAV" minima existed on some charts.
BTW, why on that Jepp plate is the LNAV minima listed as a DA(H) when it should be an MDA(H)
Last edited by oggers; 1st Mar 2017 at 15:36. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks!
Chart seems clear to me. The 136 degree course line is obviously the lateral RNAV guidance. It represents both the LPV and LNAV lateral guidance.
The minimum "VNAV" obviously needs the LNAV track as well.
Or, maybe I can't see the Danish forest for the trees.
Chart seems clear to me. The 136 degree course line is obviously the lateral RNAV guidance. It represents both the LPV and LNAV lateral guidance.
The minimum "VNAV" obviously needs the LNAV track as well.
Or, maybe I can't see the Danish forest for the trees.
aterpster...
Maybe I'm missing the forest as well but I agree. As mentioned way back earlier there are other charts out there from other providers for other airports that do not specifically say "LNAV/VNAV" on the minima table, just VNAV but it is implicit from e.g. the chart title ( and other notes) that LNAV or similar is providing lateral guidance since it is an RNAV GPS approach.
Chart seems clear to me. The 136 degree course line is obviously the lateral RNAV guidance. It represents both the LPV and LNAV lateral guidance. The minimum "VNAV" obviously needs the LNAV track as well.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In which case is there anyone out there who is still adding 40 or 50' to charted decision alt? I ask because a previous XAA, even after minima were designated DA still required the additive. Never did find out why. This was the case for an MDA, but that's different.
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: EU
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the charts we use anyway, whenever they moved from MDA to DA on NPA plates, literally all they did was change "MDA(h)" to "DA(h)". The values never changed and therefore there is no allowance for dipping below that value in the go around like there is with an ILS "DA". For this reason we add 50' to cover this scenario. I imagine the chart creator doesn't want to add this value themselves to make a 'true' DA because they value to be added really varies depending on the aircraft - momentum suggests that a C150 going around is unlikely to lose the same altitude as an A380.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two surfaces are measured inside the VDP (or the point where a VDP would be if there is not one) 34:1 and 20:1. Jeppesen is slower on charting this than the FAA. On FAA charts the 34:1-clear is marked by a light grey fan in the profile view that originates at the runway.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: HK
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the charts we use anyway, whenever they moved from MDA to DA on NPA plates, literally all they did was change "MDA(h)" to "DA(h)". The values never changed and therefore there is no allowance for dipping below that value in the go around like there is with an ILS "DA". For this reason we add 50' to cover this scenario. I imagine the chart creator doesn't want to add this value themselves to make a 'true' DA because they value to be added really varies depending on the aircraft - momentum suggests that a C150 going around is unlikely to lose the same altitude as an A380.
