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Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.


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Old 27th Apr 2010, 15:38   #101 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ask crewing
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All these replies about how much cheaper it is are pretty academic as there is one rather important issue:

THERE ARE NO JOBS!!!

(**I don't count paying Easyjet £34,000 for the honour of flying their passengers about for a bit whilst the next sap waits in the wings for their turn as a 'job'**)

This thread was started on the 26th January of this year. So, what is the OP's current employment status? Of the people joining the love-in along the way...what is your employment status? I am referring more specifically to recent graduates of the money saving modular courses (i.e. G-SXTY etc telling us about their success in 2008 is pretty irrelevant as the jobs market is a totally different place now).

You would have to be a nutter to go and spent any amount on an ATPL with no job at the end at this moment in time (£50,000 is hardly loose change). The only way I could envisage advising someone to start training is if they were accepted onto a tagged or part sponsored scheme. The only company I know of doing this at the moment is flybe. The pick is the part sponsored Cabair scheme run annually, with the FTE MPL and Waterford schemes thrown in there too. The airline makes a contribution to your training here and hence has an interest in employing you at the end. Before anyone moans about the flybe pay/bond...you'd be £34,000 better off straight away due to not having a super dooper TR to pay for!

Traditionally, low hours recruits have recently finished their training and are fresh or still in the training mentality. Training now then hoping to potter around for a bit until the upturn happens isn't a great policy, no matter how much cheaper it is. When airlines start recruiting it will be the lucky people popping out of the training system at that time..and most probably from the airlines' favoured schools. Right place, right time etc etc.

Just because WWW cites one example and using their position as a moderator tp make it a sticky just to back up their personal opinion does not make it fact, gospel or more valid...especially when it is pretty irrelvant when considered in the big context which is GETTING A JOB! After all, unless it ends up in employment/living the dream it is a wasted £50,000 doing a modular course too.

In summary, both a modular AND integrated course would be a waste of money if you didn't get a job at the end. So, at this moment in time stay away from training unless you have a job sorted...which in all likelihood means a tagged/part-sponsored integrated or MPL course.
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Old 27th Apr 2010, 16:42   #102 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I don't work for BA, so my information is third-hand, but as I understand it the reasons are historical.
Originally, in the early 70's, training was completed at Hamble where a selected number of cadets went through their zero-to-hero training program. Along the way of each program a good % of these cadets dropped out/failed to meet their required standards - which were high. So since this time an integrated student approach to co-pilot training has been inherent in their culture - only nowadays they have simply delegated this approach to a few selected schools.

Unfortunately, FL370 Officeboy's post contains grains of reality, especially for the UK, where regardless of the training route you take it simply is not a good time to be training. However, the gloss of the FTO's and the subtle suggestions that "there's light at the end of the tunnel", "some airlines are talking about pilot shortages in 2 years" and "by the time you finish there'll be jobs around" etc... are only ways of drawing new revenue into the industry.

Be warned, integrated FTOs have very well honed sales cultures and are probably quite happy to flout and breach consumer law including the law of misrepresentation in order get ya money. So plan carefully, invest for the long term and avoid "I want a job NOW" fast-tracking mentality as a great many of you will be very sorely dissappointed.
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 08:45   #103 (permalink)

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How long have I been saying there are no jobs out there?

How long have I been saying it's not going to improve for at least another couple of years?

How many times have I said that success in this game is all about timing?



I'm starting to feel like www.
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 10:55   #104 (permalink)
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Welcome to my world!

Daily PM's asking whether Oxford or Cabair or Boeing or Airbus rating. The phrase Wannabe Zombie Army was a considered one. They are relentless and unstoppable.

Quote:
Well if I hade the oppurtunity to work for BA, I would go there directly. They have problems right now, but so does all the other carriers as well. Let“s face it, BA is the ultimate career goal for many and they are among the best airline pilots in the world, together with Lufthansa and others, if you look at their assesement, training and standards.
If your ultimate career goal is to wait decades for a command whilst working in an atmosphere of hostile industrial relations and be based in LHR LGW then maybe BA is for you. They are not the best airline pilots in the world. They're bog standard. Like me. Like the rest of the airline pilots out there. In BA, like every other airline, there are Piloting Gods, bloody idiots and inbetween a vast swathe of bog standard airline pilots doing their job and living their life. The assesement is a total lottery, the training is good but nothing exceptional and the standards are high - just like most places. I doubt any BA pilot would take offence or exception at those comments.



The bottom line of the substantive point of this thread is this. When times are booming it can be worth paying the Integrated premium because this can lead to direct entry to major airline right hand seats. When times are busting it can be worth saving money by going Modular because debt repayments are a ballache and training can be slowed/delayed/speeded up as required by economic developments and personal circumstance.

We're in a massive Bust. Go Modular. You muppets.


WWW

ps Flying magazines - and I've met a few of the Editors in my time - make ALL their profit on the advertisements in the back. Note that most of the larger and therefore expensive ones are from schools selling flight training. Have you ever heard the phrase 'never bite the hand that feeds you'? Well flying magazines stroke it, manicure it and paint its freakin' fingernails. Don't believe a word they say about pilot recruitment or employment. Not one word. Ever.
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 11:41   #105 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Sounds like a jungle out there! so there are no jobs going at the moment, a good time to get training then. is the outlook for recruitment still as depressing for someone to put together a modular program and aim to finish in two years time? not ignoring the lovely icon but obviously want to find out as much as possible before making any decisions.
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 14:21   #106 (permalink)
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Not only are there no jobs at the moment (apart from £30k pay to fly loco deals) there will be fewer jobs as the economy takes a downturn and more airlines go bust or contract.


Sorry but the £2,000,000,000 Quantitative Easing money is spent, the Eurozone is about to enter a crisis big enough to cause its collapse, the UK housing market is still flat on its arse at 35,000 transaction per month despite having just has the peak of its year (Easter) and the "savage" public spending cuts and government job losses are increasingly just around the corner. So. The outlook for recruitment is still depressing. Ryanair is still the best deal out there to the general Wannabe. And that's for a job that you pay three times over the odds to get type rated for and which offers you NO guaranteed wage, base or continued position vs redundancy - you're a contract worker to be switched on, or off, as the accountants dictate.

Its a huge great big shit sandwich but the queue to take a bite extends down the street and past the chemists. Its quite amazing really.


Really. It is.


WWW
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 14:53   #107 (permalink)
 
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''Has anyone heard of or dealt with Waterford pilot training college in Ireland? have been offered a place on their modular (zero to CPL and theory ATPL) course but price is huge 87,500 Euro. they have a link with Florida I.T which is where you do majority of hours.''

I did lad. I've done a lot of research on this place as its only across the road from me. All anyone is saying too me is stay away, the centre is nice, the promise is nice and the trainers are nice too but I have been told by people who went and trained in this too stay well clear
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 15:00   #108 (permalink)
 
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If everything is "nice", why are they telling you to stay clear? Did these people you've spoken to finish their training recently or over a year ago or more?
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 16:47   #109 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Not only are there no jobs at the moment (apart from £30k pay to fly loco deals) there will be fewer jobs as the economy takes a downturn and more airlines go bust or contract.
After the election in the UK, the reality of how much trouble the economy is in will become a reality. And its in very very serious trouble indeed - even to the extent that the 3 major parties are skirting around the issue as they know it will drastically affect their ratings in the polls.

Yet still the naive and optimistic keep coming: As my Father use to say "If you cant be clever then learn the hard way."
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 16:54   #110 (permalink)
 
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Perhaps you should focus less on the UK and start looking abroad? The first thing we learn in Sweden is, if you want to be a pilot, then be prepared to move far, far away from home.
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 17:40   #111 (permalink)
 
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I would have to agree with you Fabbe92, however not all wannabees are as open minded a you would have hoped. See:

2011 recruitment

However, I would also point out and perhaps reiterate WWW's post that the recession is a world recession and that, although, European economies are ahead of the UK in their economic cycle and have provided a little room for optimism the very recent events in Greece are likely to slow it all down rather dramatically....
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 18:55   #112 (permalink)
 
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Yes I know that it doesn“t look good anywhere at the moment, but if one tends to look at the UK or any other country specificly, the chances of getting a job are slim even during boom times.
And then I“m not talking about jet jobs. Any flying job in the world where you are safe and earn a decent living, is a good job.
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Old 28th Apr 2010, 22:37   #113 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
but if one tends to look at the UK or any other country specificly, the chances of getting a job are slim even during boom times.
Er...possibly not. Given that the UK is well within the the top 10 world economies I would say that its a good place to start looking during a boom time.

Fabbe92 we're straying off the thread track here mate - perhaps check out the thread 2011 recruitment ?
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Old 29th Apr 2010, 08:13   #114 (permalink)
 
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''If everything is "nice", why are they telling you to stay clear? Did these people you've spoken to finish their training recently or over a year ago or more?''

It appears too be nice until you learn that all they want is your money. I have been told and have talked too ex students who finished both last year and 4 years ago. and both are the same. they are now in over 90k of debt and still have no job. now i cant fully comment as i dont have first hand experence with doing their course just going on these people. general rule is if you have that cash + another 30k for a tr ( ryanair ) then go ahead. Pilot Training Course Waterford PTC Ireland Diary of a PTC Student this fella seemed too enjoy it but he is as far as im aware not a pilot at the min
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Old 18th May 2010, 12:57   #115 (permalink)
 
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Intergrated

The integrated course is easier to pass through.
Modular is like learning to fly using a ski instructor.
It takes a lot of independent study and research...
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Old 18th May 2010, 16:38   #116 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
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Quote:
The integrated course is easier to pass through.
Modular is like learning to fly using a ski instructor.
It takes a lot of independent study and research...
Yes - simply hours and hours and you only end up saving £30k. Methinks I smell a course recruiter....
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Old 23rd May 2010, 21:45   #117 (permalink)
 
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I'm currently doing modular training and I can finance that through my job. It is all based on the thought that I can speed it up or slow it down whenever I want. At this point I'm still working on my PPL and I bought a share in a Diamond Katana, so hour building will be cheap for me.

A friend of mine is almost done with his integrated course and he is scared as hell. He has a dept of almost 140k (euro) and he is madly searching for possibility's to get a loan for another 30k for a TR. Its just insane.

When I am finished with my training in a year or 2-3 I will have no debt at all and it will cost me 1/3 of what my friend payed for his licence (exactly the same!!!!). I will be able to sleep at night and if there ever rises an opportunity to get a job I will have no problems at all to get a loan for an TR or if the market is still shit I can get a FI rating or just have fun flying the Katana around Europe and keep my current job.


Something about penny wise, pound...



ps: as you can see I am a long time reader, but this was my first post

Last edited by Immortal; 25th May 2010 at 08:55.
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 05:34   #118 (permalink)
 
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whoa! You are exactly doing what I want to do, though I'm still in college (graduate next year)
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 09:52   #119 (permalink)

 
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plenty of job...

ratio 1/1000 (1 job/1000 pilots)

you don't believe? no problems, it s you money...I don't care if you don't belive me. I have no debts...
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 15:01   #120 (permalink)

 
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bye bye buddy, you have been baned.

shame on us, everything you said is right.

Quote:
A friend of mine is almost done with his integrated course and he is scared as hell. He has a dept of almost 140k (euro) and he is madly searching for possibility's to get a loan for another 30k for a TR. Its just insane.

tell him:if you can not take care of your money, how can you fly a jet??
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