Wheel landings and groundloops
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So what do you do when bits drop off the aircraft?
On the other end of the rope, early solo in a K8 glider, (no radio)....at about 500 feet following the tug on climbout, the tug's tailwheel fell off in front of me! I couldn't think of anything useful, so simply continued on tow. Being minus a tailwheel had no adverse effect on landing the tug.
Brian Lecomber once gave a talk at a Booker Gliding Club Dinner, and told us that our flying really impressed him...every takeoff was formation flying, and every landing was an emergency! (technically, anyway).
Brian Lecomber once gave a talk at a Booker Gliding Club Dinner, and told us that our flying really impressed him...every takeoff was formation flying, and every landing was an emergency! (technically, anyway).
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Why do the Alaska bush pilots use the wheel landing when competing in the short landing contests if the three point is a better method?
When landing really short in the DC3 or say the Beech 18 I always found wheeling it on at the slowest airspeed possible and on surface contact forward on the elevator control to pin it and put a load on the tires so I could use max braking was the preferred method to short land.
Maybe I was doing it wrong for all those thousands of hours flying the things?
When landing really short in the DC3 or say the Beech 18 I always found wheeling it on at the slowest airspeed possible and on surface contact forward on the elevator control to pin it and put a load on the tires so I could use max braking was the preferred method to short land.
Maybe I was doing it wrong for all those thousands of hours flying the things?
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[QUOTE The center of gravity is behind the main wheels in a tail wheel airplane or it would not sit on the tailwheel when stopped.[/QUOTE]
Ah, but Chuck, during a wheel landing, the C of G is not as far behind the mainwheels. The point of my original post. If you wheel it on, to some degree, the need to maintain directional control actively is slightly less demanding, because the repositioned C of G. The elevator still gives you good pitch control, so nosing over is not an increased risk, if you apply control.
Ah, but Chuck, during a wheel landing, the C of G is not as far behind the mainwheels. The point of my original post. If you wheel it on, to some degree, the need to maintain directional control actively is slightly less demanding, because the repositioned C of G. The elevator still gives you good pitch control, so nosing over is not an increased risk, if you apply control.
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Ah, but Chuck, during a wheel landing, the C of G is not as far behind the mainwheels. The point of my original post. If you wheel it on, to some degree, the need to maintain directional control actively is slightly less demanding, because the repositioned C of G. The elevator still gives you good pitch control, so nosing over is not an increased risk, if you apply control.
However the point I was trying to make is if sideways drift is present at touch down the C of G is behind the main wheels which will be on the ground and yaw will be fed by the rearward C of G in direct proportion to the inertia of the sideways drift at touch down....
....the wheel landing gives better yaw control than the three point landing due to the higher airflow over the tail controls and the airflow is not partially disturbed by the airframe and flaps etc, the Beech 18 is an example of this difficulty in controlling yaw in the three point landing.
The bottom line is competent pilots will be equally skilled in either method and thus able to choose which method to use for a given situation.
When I do initial tail wheel training on light training aircraft they do not get to fly until they can comfortably control the airplane down the runway with the tail in the air...when they can S-Turn down the center line I then take them flying.
Note:
The above is only my personal way of teaching and is based on decades of flying tail wheel airplanes....and I have never turned loose a pilot that lost control of a tail wheel airplane to the best of my knowledge.
As with so much in aviation, it varies. It varies with the aircraft, and it varies with the conditions. Personally, I enjoy the satisfaction of a perfect three-pointer, especially on grass. However, on concrete with a crosswind, I think I'll wheel it on if you don't mind.
I've ground-looped a tandem high wing twice when three-pointing it. Flying from the back seat, solo. I've never come close to a ground loop when wheeling it on.
With this aircraft, wheeling it on makes little difference to the ground roll, but a huge difference to the forward view.
Whatever works best for you.
With this aircraft, wheeling it on makes little difference to the ground roll, but a huge difference to the forward view.
Whatever works best for you.
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Shirley in a 3-pointer you touch down (by definition) at a higher AoA (in fact only a little above stall AoA), so also by definition, slower than the lesser AoA of the wheel landing? Therefore less runway required in the roll-out to come to a stop.
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I don't let Shirley fly my taildragger.
I agree that three point landings will have a shorter ground roll. But, for my experience with my Teal, the tailwheel took such a pounding touching down at the higher three point speed, that holding it off as long as possible made all the difference - and I had better control in the mean time!
I agree that three point landings will have a shorter ground roll. But, for my experience with my Teal, the tailwheel took such a pounding touching down at the higher three point speed, that holding it off as long as possible made all the difference - and I had better control in the mean time!
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I am not trying to be pedantic on this subject but once again if the three point method gives the shortest landing why do those Alaska bush pilots use the wheel landing to win the short landing contests in the Super Cubs?
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why do those Alaska bush pilots use the wheel landing to win the short landing contests in the Super Cubs?
I have never nosed over. I notice that a few of the "Alaska" pilots have, while trying to land very short. So, I won't copy that! I accept that greatly skilled pilots can balance the forces of brakes against up elevator, and maybe some propwash - but that exceeds my skills! I have lifted a tailwheel off a couple of times doing hard braking, and it made me nervous, so I don't do that anymore!
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Of course it requires high skills to win the short landing completion in the Alaska Super Cub contests, and occasionally someone will exceed the limits and smack the prop on the ground or flip the airplane....
.....however the shortest landings are done with the wheel landing and load the tires and heavy braking...
.....so in my simple mind I have concluded that wheel landings do beat three point landings when spot..short landing.
Back to bigger tail wheel airplanes.
During my DC3 days a very large percentage of our flying was off airport operations on various surfaces such as snow/ice....sand beaches in the high Arctic and oil well service truck roads built in the wilderness and accurate touch downs and short landings often were required.
I experimented very carefully with the DC3 to see how best to perform these landings.
My findings were on snow/ice with wheel skis a tail low wheel landing worked best.
On pavement or hard surfaces such as hard packed gravel roads the wheel landing with max safe braking gave the shortest landings.
The problem with the three point landing was accurate touch down on a given point was more difficult than doing the wheel landing due to the difficulty of judging float before the three point touch down.....every second of excess float really eats up distance.
I am aware that many here may not agree with my personal methods with the DC3 but for me it worked best and I never lost control or landed short or ran off the side of the landing path or off the end in five thousand hours of flying the DC3.
Bottom line is each pilot should fly the way that works best for them and if you don't wreck the airplane then your method is best for you.
There I am finished and hope we all can agree on my last sentence.
.....however the shortest landings are done with the wheel landing and load the tires and heavy braking...
.....so in my simple mind I have concluded that wheel landings do beat three point landings when spot..short landing.
Back to bigger tail wheel airplanes.
During my DC3 days a very large percentage of our flying was off airport operations on various surfaces such as snow/ice....sand beaches in the high Arctic and oil well service truck roads built in the wilderness and accurate touch downs and short landings often were required.
I experimented very carefully with the DC3 to see how best to perform these landings.
My findings were on snow/ice with wheel skis a tail low wheel landing worked best.
On pavement or hard surfaces such as hard packed gravel roads the wheel landing with max safe braking gave the shortest landings.
The problem with the three point landing was accurate touch down on a given point was more difficult than doing the wheel landing due to the difficulty of judging float before the three point touch down.....every second of excess float really eats up distance.
I am aware that many here may not agree with my personal methods with the DC3 but for me it worked best and I never lost control or landed short or ran off the side of the landing path or off the end in five thousand hours of flying the DC3.
Bottom line is each pilot should fly the way that works best for them and if you don't wreck the airplane then your method is best for you.
There I am finished and hope we all can agree on my last sentence.
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He seemed to ignore the golden rule of stick hard back once down 3-point. In fact, unless that type has very limited elevator movement, he doesn't seem to get the stick back even as the tail rises!
Agreed, Chuck, you can judge the touchdown point more easily with a wheeler. But I can't see how a wheeler touchdown won't always be faster than a 3-point one. Maybe those Alaskan guys are very skilled at hard braking (big tundra tyres - plenty of ground grip) without nosing over?
I hardly ever use brakes to slow on the runway, especially on grass, either 3-point or wheeler. Apart from anything else, it's not very effective! For me, brakes are steering devices.
Skinny tyres on wet grass....
The Yak52 (tricycle, heavy, narrow tyres) with free-castoring nose wheel and differential main wheel brakes for steering) I had a share in for a while would simply lock a braked mainwheel at muddy winter Barton and have zero steering effect. Blipping the throttle worked better, digging in the RH tyre on power application (big 9-cylinder radial engine) and the LH tyre on sudden power reduction. Steered a treat!
Agreed, Chuck, you can judge the touchdown point more easily with a wheeler. But I can't see how a wheeler touchdown won't always be faster than a 3-point one. Maybe those Alaskan guys are very skilled at hard braking (big tundra tyres - plenty of ground grip) without nosing over?
I hardly ever use brakes to slow on the runway, especially on grass, either 3-point or wheeler. Apart from anything else, it's not very effective! For me, brakes are steering devices.
Skinny tyres on wet grass....
The Yak52 (tricycle, heavy, narrow tyres) with free-castoring nose wheel and differential main wheel brakes for steering) I had a share in for a while would simply lock a braked mainwheel at muddy winter Barton and have zero steering effect. Blipping the throttle worked better, digging in the RH tyre on power application (big 9-cylinder radial engine) and the LH tyre on sudden power reduction. Steered a treat!
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 5th Oct 2015 at 21:16.
However this is the private flying forum and I think it is unlikely anybody reading this is flying around in his/her private DC3.
What they are more likely doing is flying around in a variety of light tail draggers. I would suggest that what is the best way to fly the DC 3 does not automatically make it the best way to fly a Cub/Champ/chippy/Jodel/Condor etc etc.
Personally I 3 point the small tail draggers and wheel land the big ones with the cross over at around the Cessna 185 size.
As for the short field thing I think it is mostly a red herring for the small tail draggers. Wheel or 3 point it is pretty much a given that you will be able to land in a shorter distance than you can safely takeoff in all of the non specialty STOL smaller taildraggers.
However like pretty much everything in flying, this issue IMHO resists one fits all pronouncements. I like reading different points of view and am always interested in different thoughts on why pilots do what they do
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Agreed, Chuck, you can judge the touchdown point more easily with a wheeler. But I can't see how a wheeler touchdown won't always be faster than a 3-point one. Maybe those Alaskan guys are very skilled at hard braking (big tundra tyres - plenty of ground grip) without nosing over?
I see there is some dissatisfaction from one of the posters here because I used the DC3 as an example for describing the wheel landing on the private pilot forum...for that lapse of consideration I am pointing out how the Super Cub on big wheels reacted when wheel landing it.
In the nineteen sixties there was a Canadian Company in the Ottawa area called Bradley Air Services that equipped the Super Cub with those big tires for operating in the high Arctic on the soft surfaces when the frost was coming out of the ground.
I was flying in the Arctic at that time and spent part of a summer flying the Super Cub on the Bradley big tires, it was owned by the company I was flying the DC3 for and I offered to fly the Super Cub for a change of pace and just loved the thing..I still have a bunch of pictures of it taken on Banks Island where it was being used that summer.
One day I saw a flat topped small mountain that intrigued me and finally I got the perfect conditions to land on it with the wind about fifteen MPH and the turbulence was no problem determined by several low approaches and go arounds.....so I landed on it and after taxiing back to the approach edge I shut down and walked the top to see how long the flat surface was...it was eighty yards.
For that landing I used the wheel landing method because I had to touch down as close to the start of the level top as possible.
The reason I am going to all this effort to relate this story is to explain that using the wheel landing method worked just fine with the Super Cub on big tires just like it worked with the DC3 just in case there actually are some private pilots here who are not interested in the DC3 stories.
There....I hope that helps those who think I am just defensive and limited in my understanding of the subject of tail wheel airplanes.
Oh and another thing I would like to mention....
...when I post these stories I use my real name because I like to relate all the things I was fortunate enough to have experienced in my long career as a working pilot.
Common sense should dictate my stories are true because if I was B.S. ing my credibility would be ruined.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 6th Oct 2015 at 03:09.
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Keep your experiences coming Chuck. I for one enjoy reading your posts whether they concern large commercial types or the smaller types most of us here have experience of.
With regard to the use of real / assumed names, I believe the reason many of us post under such is due to the fact that we post during working / clients time and very often on their IT equipment
With regard to the use of real / assumed names, I believe the reason many of us post under such is due to the fact that we post during working / clients time and very often on their IT equipment
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Thanks Small R.D.
i understand why some people use assumed names and have no problem with their choice as long as they do not use it to try and demean others.
I worked in Europe for many years and have lots of friends there and by using my real name it is a way of keeping in touch.
We pilots as a group like to identify as pilots and like relating all the interesting stuff which can sometimes be seen as self promoting so we walk a fine line at times.
Time for me is passing by a bit to fast and I like to relate my past experiences because it makes me feel younger.
In a few weeks I will be eighty and I still am as healthy as a teen ager so I may live for a long time yet.
i understand why some people use assumed names and have no problem with their choice as long as they do not use it to try and demean others.
I worked in Europe for many years and have lots of friends there and by using my real name it is a way of keeping in touch.
We pilots as a group like to identify as pilots and like relating all the interesting stuff which can sometimes be seen as self promoting so we walk a fine line at times.
Time for me is passing by a bit to fast and I like to relate my past experiences because it makes me feel younger.
In a few weeks I will be eighty and I still am as healthy as a teen ager so I may live for a long time yet.