Out of date GPS
Join Date: Sep 2011
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In the UK the Air Navigation Order definitely does not specify what is acceptable or not in terms of VFR navigation. I can't remember the exact wording and cba to look it up but its something like, "shall carry maps, charts and codes suitable for the intended flight and any anticipated diversion".
It definitely does not say, for example, that carrying the latest half mil chart is a requirement.
The point being that as PIC you are responsible for deciding how you will navigate, stay safe and not infringe CAS. When you bust somebody's control zone that isn't on your chart it is not a defence to say, "But your Honour, I was using the latest official chart and it isn't marked".
Any chart or gps update is out of date as soon as it is issued. You have to check official sources like AIS for updates. So for your chart to be up to date it will have loads of pencil marks showing the changes that you have made to it. how you do that on a gps moving map between updates I don't know.
It definitely does not say, for example, that carrying the latest half mil chart is a requirement.
The point being that as PIC you are responsible for deciding how you will navigate, stay safe and not infringe CAS. When you bust somebody's control zone that isn't on your chart it is not a defence to say, "But your Honour, I was using the latest official chart and it isn't marked".
Any chart or gps update is out of date as soon as it is issued. You have to check official sources like AIS for updates. So for your chart to be up to date it will have loads of pencil marks showing the changes that you have made to it. how you do that on a gps moving map between updates I don't know.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Duties of commander
Pre-flight action by commander of aircraft other than EU-OPS aeroplanes
86.
—(1) This article applies to the commander of any aircraft except for the commander of an
EU-OPS aeroplane intending to commence a commercial air transport flight.
(2)
A commander must, before taking off on a private f
light, an aerial work flight or a public
transport flight, take all reasonable steps so as to
be satisfied of the matters specified in paragraph
(3).
(3)
The matters referred to in paragraph (2) are that—
(a)
the flight can safely be made, taking into account
the latest information available as to the
route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any
alternative course of action which can be adopted in
case the flight cannot be completed
as planned;
Pre-flight action by commander of aircraft other than EU-OPS aeroplanes
86.
—(1) This article applies to the commander of any aircraft except for the commander of an
EU-OPS aeroplane intending to commence a commercial air transport flight.
(2)
A commander must, before taking off on a private f
light, an aerial work flight or a public
transport flight, take all reasonable steps so as to
be satisfied of the matters specified in paragraph
(3).
(3)
The matters referred to in paragraph (2) are that—
(a)
the flight can safely be made, taking into account
the latest information available as to the
route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any
alternative course of action which can be adopted in
case the flight cannot be completed
as planned;
Join Date: Aug 2002
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My main point, however is that if you hire something you enter in to a contract with the owner who has a duty to supply what he states you are getting.
If he informs you that the sat nav is out of date, that is ok.
If he informs you that the sat nav is out of date, that is ok.
If you enter into a contract to hire something that is simply described as "an aircraft with a GPS" .... and you are duly supplied with "an aircraft" and "a GPS" then the owner has fulfilled their duty.
Much like if I sold you "an iPhone" on eBay and it turned up INOP. I never stated in the description whether it was functional or not, and you never asked... thus its your loss.
Do not read any more into a contract than is explicitly stated, because more than likely the only person that will end up with a red face is you.
Also, from an aviation point of view.... you as the PIC have the ultimate responsibility. So its up to you to RTFM and check for yourself the GPS is up to date..... much in the same way you check the fuel levels in your tanks.
The requirement to carry a chart is in NCO.GEN.135(a)(10):
Electronic versions are explicitly allowed in the Guidance Material in the AMC to Part-NCO:
current and suitable aeronautical charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect that the flight may be diverted;
GM1 NCO.GEN.135 Documents, manuals and information to be carried
GENERAL
. . .
(b) The documents, manuals and information may be available in a form other than on printed paper. An electronic storage medium is acceptable if accessibility, usability and reliability can be assured.
GENERAL
. . .
(b) The documents, manuals and information may be available in a form other than on printed paper. An electronic storage medium is acceptable if accessibility, usability and reliability can be assured.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
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Much like if I sold you "an iPhone" on eBay and it turned up INOP. I never stated in the description whether it was functional or not, and you never asked... thus its your loss.
I don't agree Mixture. True, if you hire , borrow or purchase something from a private person or mate and it is not as advertised, tough. Though you do have redress.
If you hire a car for example from a commercial organisation and the engine does not work I think you have a case! Same with a commercial flying club. It is their duty in law to supply 'goods suitable for purpose'. You have a case if they are not!
If you hire a car for example from a commercial organisation and the engine does not work I think you have a case! Same with a commercial flying club. It is their duty in law to supply 'goods suitable for purpose'. You have a case if they are not!
Ah well, Blunty old bean, when a colleague and I hired a car at Toronto airport, we were offered a Garmin SatNav if we wanted it. So my colleague agreed; when we set off I checked the map date and it was at least a year out of date....
Similarly with an aircraft GPS. If you want to be 100% certain, use your own portable device - which is what I now do when hiring a car in Das Reich as my good old nüvi 660 has up-to-date mapping!
Similarly with an aircraft GPS. If you want to be 100% certain, use your own portable device - which is what I now do when hiring a car in Das Reich as my good old nüvi 660 has up-to-date mapping!
Join Date: May 2013
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dont laugh. I used a garmin 2 plus and found it gave me exactly what I needed for my cross country navs.
no map database so nothing to go out of date.
however it used to track about a dozen satellites all the time.
I noticed recently that it was only ever tracking about six satellites.
I looked around at the offerings and the cost of the map databases that I don't use were all too high.
eventually I purchased a garmin etrex10 for about $99 new.
this wasn't what I wanted but the screens could be reconfigured.
I now have almost the same functionality as my old garmin 2 plus in the screen I use.
what I also got in the upgrade was 2 aa battery operation, configs stored internally on a micro SD card and thus no system battery flat so all wiped as before.
but more importantly I got the tracking of a full constellation of satellites back.
in these old out of date gps units how many satellites are being tracked?
no map database so nothing to go out of date.
however it used to track about a dozen satellites all the time.
I noticed recently that it was only ever tracking about six satellites.
I looked around at the offerings and the cost of the map databases that I don't use were all too high.
eventually I purchased a garmin etrex10 for about $99 new.
this wasn't what I wanted but the screens could be reconfigured.
I now have almost the same functionality as my old garmin 2 plus in the screen I use.
what I also got in the upgrade was 2 aa battery operation, configs stored internally on a micro SD card and thus no system battery flat so all wiped as before.
but more importantly I got the tracking of a full constellation of satellites back.
in these old out of date gps units how many satellites are being tracked?
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Same with a commercial flying club. It is their duty in law to supply 'goods suitable for purpose'. You have a case if they are not!
The fact the GPS data is out of date puts you in no different a position as if you turned up at the airfield with a paper map you bought a few months back. Its still ultimately your responsibility as PIC to ensure that any temporary or permanent airspace changes along the route you plan to fly have been taken into account when using whatever navigation tool you plan to use. Given that the flying club will have no idea what route you'll be flying, 'suitable for purpose' is irrelevant at that level of detail.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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The answer is simple. If you want an aircraft with up to date GPS then be prepared to pay more for it. Most people either aren't prepared to pay, or buy their own GPS unit so don't care about the built in one.
Well actually I do still recall nearly 50 years ago flying from A to B in the UK with just a P11 compass and an out of date map. The weather was awful. Just as well as I flew right over a large civil airport at some 500 feet (just below the cloud). No one saw me 
Now in need a GPS.. What a hypocrite I am!
Now in need a GPS.. What a hypocrite I am!
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Flydrive 1. When you check NOTAMS you are supposed to check the map updates... every time! No way can you check GPS updates without an update !
& I never said an out of date GPD database will kill you. But it might cause you problems.
& I never said an out of date GPD database will kill you. But it might cause you problems.
In Australia we have a regulatory regime which is very punitive. CASA turn up at fly-ins and air shows and make a big issue of ramp checks. Humble VFR single engine aircraft, including homebuilts, are targeted.
Woe betide any unfortunate pilot caught using any navigation data or charts that are out of date.
It is now so bad that many of us no longer attend these events.
I am not a child of the magenta line but I do believe that if you are going to use GPS it is a good idea to also have a position-enabled iPad with a suitable navigation program. My iPad maps are always updated, because the subscription covers it and the update process is easy. I don't find Garmin so user friendly to update and it costs more, so that has now become my secondary means of navigation. If CASA come looking the Garmin will go in my back pocket and I will trot out a paper WAC.
Flying with no autopilot and trying to pick your way through terrain with just a paper chart is a mandatory skill to learn for the day when the electronics let you down, and in clear weather I still map read for practice.
But when the weather is marginal VFR, map reading is nowhere near as safe as using good electronic methods, allowing the pilot to concentrate on flight control and look out.
So, if you are hiring, at least one of your navigation goodies needs to be up to date if only because they build nasty things like power lines which may not be on those old paper charts.
Woe betide any unfortunate pilot caught using any navigation data or charts that are out of date.
It is now so bad that many of us no longer attend these events.
I am not a child of the magenta line but I do believe that if you are going to use GPS it is a good idea to also have a position-enabled iPad with a suitable navigation program. My iPad maps are always updated, because the subscription covers it and the update process is easy. I don't find Garmin so user friendly to update and it costs more, so that has now become my secondary means of navigation. If CASA come looking the Garmin will go in my back pocket and I will trot out a paper WAC.
Flying with no autopilot and trying to pick your way through terrain with just a paper chart is a mandatory skill to learn for the day when the electronics let you down, and in clear weather I still map read for practice.
But when the weather is marginal VFR, map reading is nowhere near as safe as using good electronic methods, allowing the pilot to concentrate on flight control and look out.
So, if you are hiring, at least one of your navigation goodies needs to be up to date if only because they build nasty things like power lines which may not be on those old paper charts.
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Humble VFR single engine aircraft, including homebuilts, are targeted.
Woe betide any unfortunate pilot caught using any navigation data or charts that are out of date.
Woe betide any unfortunate pilot caught using any navigation data or charts that are out of date.
What "humble VFR single engine aircraft" nonsense !
You are sharing that airspace with other users as well as overflying an ever changing landscape.
I don't care how "humble" the bugsquashing brigade think their spamcans are .... there is no option in having up to date navigational data ... its a MUST. If you can't afford to keep your navs up to date, you can't afford to fly.
PICs failing to have up to date navigational data are putting others at risk as well as themselves.
Sounds like CASA is doing a great job of saving Australia from those who think otherwise !