Landings in a Piper Warrior
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Landings in a Piper Warrior
I'm at 20 hours and on the verge of my first solo flight. I had to go up for a "pre-solo" phase check with another instructor at our club to satisfy insurance requirements. I passed the check and expect I'll have my first solo soon.
Only gripe I have with the phase check was my first landing (we did three, two touch and go's and the final landing). The approach seemed perfect right up until I was over the numbers and started to flare. At this point it felt like a gust of wind picked up the right wing and rolled me hard to the left. I over-corrected, and ended up in a steep bank to the right now. I was still nose high and bleeding off speed but this violent wobble continued in lesser severity until I was able to level it off and drop it on the back two wheels without any bounce, but you could tell it was a hard landing. The instructor didn't have much to say even though I immediately told him I could do better and showed him on the following two.
Any advice on how to deal with a situation like this? I've never expereienced such a violent wobbling right in the flare itself, and I know that next time I go up it might just be me, myself, and I.. The biggest thing I noticed was lack of control authority at this point because of the dwindling airspeed and high angle of attack. What can I do to smooth something like this out to avoid swiping a wingtip against the runway or worse?
Thanks!
Only gripe I have with the phase check was my first landing (we did three, two touch and go's and the final landing). The approach seemed perfect right up until I was over the numbers and started to flare. At this point it felt like a gust of wind picked up the right wing and rolled me hard to the left. I over-corrected, and ended up in a steep bank to the right now. I was still nose high and bleeding off speed but this violent wobble continued in lesser severity until I was able to level it off and drop it on the back two wheels without any bounce, but you could tell it was a hard landing. The instructor didn't have much to say even though I immediately told him I could do better and showed him on the following two.
Any advice on how to deal with a situation like this? I've never expereienced such a violent wobbling right in the flare itself, and I know that next time I go up it might just be me, myself, and I.. The biggest thing I noticed was lack of control authority at this point because of the dwindling airspeed and high angle of attack. What can I do to smooth something like this out to avoid swiping a wingtip against the runway or worse?
Thanks!
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Spoiled landings
Hi vdehart,
I would say that, especially at your stage of training, if ANYTHING goes wrong with a landing don't continue it. Get the power on, (which will instantly give you control authority,) and do a go round.
And if, having done a go round, you have something go wrong with your next landing, DO THE SAME AGAIN.
And be prepared to do go rounds until you get a landing you are satisfied with.
I learned on tail-draggers where this advice was perhaps more emphasised because tail-draggers are more tricky to land; (they tend to bounce with very little provocation).
The modern tricycle is so good at making a poor landing work that pilots tend to expect always to be able to complete any landing successfuly, no matter how ropey. This is not good practice because sooner or later you will have a landing that can't be fudged by relying on the poor, abused, undercarriage to save the day.
Good luck!
BP.
I would say that, especially at your stage of training, if ANYTHING goes wrong with a landing don't continue it. Get the power on, (which will instantly give you control authority,) and do a go round.
And if, having done a go round, you have something go wrong with your next landing, DO THE SAME AGAIN.
And be prepared to do go rounds until you get a landing you are satisfied with.
I learned on tail-draggers where this advice was perhaps more emphasised because tail-draggers are more tricky to land; (they tend to bounce with very little provocation).
The modern tricycle is so good at making a poor landing work that pilots tend to expect always to be able to complete any landing successfuly, no matter how ropey. This is not good practice because sooner or later you will have a landing that can't be fudged by relying on the poor, abused, undercarriage to save the day.
Good luck!
BP.
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Agreed. If your landing approach gets unstable, go around and try again. Don't try to save things while close to the ground and bleeding speed fast.
If you know why the situation occurs (turbulence due to the wind over buildings for instance) you might want to try to land slightly further into the field (landing distance permitting) so you can punch through the turbulence with a bit more speed, less flap, and a bit more air under your wheels.
If you know why the situation occurs (turbulence due to the wind over buildings for instance) you might want to try to land slightly further into the field (landing distance permitting) so you can punch through the turbulence with a bit more speed, less flap, and a bit more air under your wheels.
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In the UK anyway, one of the most important checks on you an instructor will before you go solo is decision making - will you go around when it doesn't look right or will you try to "save" it.
If you try to save it, its back into the circuit for some more practice...
So I agree with the posters above.
Should have gone around!
If you try to save it, its back into the circuit for some more practice...
So I agree with the posters above.
Should have gone around!
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At this point it felt like a gust of wind picked up the right wing and rolled me hard to the left. I over-corrected, and ended up in a steep bank to the right now
I've got 160 hours - nearly all in Warriors, and I still sometimes forget to use rudder to control small gusts on approach. I think it's partially because you don't really need rudder input in Warriors most of the time... I have to actively work at using my feet.
Once I finally learnt to counteract bumps with the rudder rather than ailerons, I felt a lot safer!
Even in a recent skills test, we spent about ten minutes re-training me to use the rudder more (after passing all the hard stuff first).
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Your description of wallowing side to side on final is terrifying - I would have rammed the power in and gone around like everyone else says. I made a complete arse of my first approach on first solo flight, forgot to trim back with flaps on base leg, was way too high on final, forgot CRAP check to put carb heat back to cold etc etc etc did a go around - second approach and landing was great as a result, and with go aorunds you get to fly a bit longer too! I'm 30 hour student
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I wasn't there but what seems like wild side to side movement to a low hour stude could be what an experienced pilot would class as a normal bit of puff before touchdown. I'm pretty sure that his instructor would have taken control had he been swinging like a hammock.
To the OP, having said that when you are on your own and you think it's getting a bit hairy GO AROUND, there's no shame in it, in fact it shows good airmanship and decision making. When you are solo you are the aircraft commander and it's your call. What you would call hairy at your stage and what someone with a thousand hours on a taildragger would call hairy are probably two different things, but if it's hairy to you that's all that matters.
Edit: I learned on a massive runway, when I got my license I had a trip up to Breighton which is about 800 meters of grass. I had three goes at getting it down, not because I was landing long but there just didn't seem to be enough runway left. There was obviously. Now it wouldn't even register flying into a 500 meter strip.
Take things slowly, do things safely and if you find yourself like me going round with 600 meters of grass left in front of you then it's your call, you do what you think is safe as I did on that day.
To the OP, having said that when you are on your own and you think it's getting a bit hairy GO AROUND, there's no shame in it, in fact it shows good airmanship and decision making. When you are solo you are the aircraft commander and it's your call. What you would call hairy at your stage and what someone with a thousand hours on a taildragger would call hairy are probably two different things, but if it's hairy to you that's all that matters.
Edit: I learned on a massive runway, when I got my license I had a trip up to Breighton which is about 800 meters of grass. I had three goes at getting it down, not because I was landing long but there just didn't seem to be enough runway left. There was obviously. Now it wouldn't even register flying into a 500 meter strip.
Take things slowly, do things safely and if you find yourself like me going round with 600 meters of grass left in front of you then it's your call, you do what you think is safe as I did on that day.
Last edited by thing; 30th Aug 2013 at 13:25.
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CaptainDrCook, I think it is important to note that aileron and rudder should be coordinated at all times, except for a side- or forwardslip (or wing-low landing). To correct for turbulence I use aileron and rudder coordinated, otherwise the passengers experience an unnecessary yaw in addition to the bump.
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Two things !
First I echo tha advice above about getting the power on and going around if you have any doubts about the safety of the landing.
My second comment is that there seems to be a question of lack of control at low airspeed, this hints at the aircraft running out of elevator authority. I think you should check the loading of the aircraft as I suspect that you are on the forward edge of the C of G limit and the aircraft would benifit from a bit of weight in the baggage bay to bring the C of G towards the centre of the range.
My second comment is that there seems to be a question of lack of control at low airspeed, this hints at the aircraft running out of elevator authority. I think you should check the loading of the aircraft as I suspect that you are on the forward edge of the C of G limit and the aircraft would benifit from a bit of weight in the baggage bay to bring the C of G towards the centre of the range.
What were the wind conditions like when this happened?
Also it could be thermal activity - when runways heat up hot air near them rises and not always symmetrically!
An earlier poster implies you should slam the throttle open on a low level Go Around - NO!! Operate the throttle smoothly and progressively!
Also have you discussed this with your flying instructor?
Also it could be thermal activity - when runways heat up hot air near them rises and not always symmetrically!
An earlier poster implies you should slam the throttle open on a low level Go Around - NO!! Operate the throttle smoothly and progressively!
Also have you discussed this with your flying instructor?
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In the days that I was learning to fly - I have retired now so learning has stopped, I can remember having a long chat with a couple of highly experienced ATPLs about such matters. They were discussing an American friend of theirs who had just arrived in his 747 after a go-around. "I thought that you never went around," they said to him.
"There is a first time for everything," he replied.
NEVER be afraid to go around for all the reasons correctly stated above. The instructor with whom you were flying probably did not think it was too bad so let you continue to sort it out. If it was getting bad, he would have found his hands on the controls without thinking! He is a better judge as to how bad it was than you are and you would have done much better and created a much better impression in his mind if you had gone around. Maybe that is a reason why you did not go solo then.
P.P.
"There is a first time for everything," he replied.
NEVER be afraid to go around for all the reasons correctly stated above. The instructor with whom you were flying probably did not think it was too bad so let you continue to sort it out. If it was getting bad, he would have found his hands on the controls without thinking! He is a better judge as to how bad it was than you are and you would have done much better and created a much better impression in his mind if you had gone around. Maybe that is a reason why you did not go solo then.
P.P.
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Also it could be thermal activity
Wha'ever; if you are absolutely certain that you understand what is happening and are in complete control then by all means rescue the landing.
Otherwise a go-around is going to sort it out much more reliably than carrying on, and waiting to see what the aircraft does next, and hoping for the best.
In my case the thermals blew me all over the place. I went around. The second time, the thermals blew me all over the place again. I went around again. The third time I landed on the grass runway, which doesn't suffer from this problem.
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It would appear like the overwhelming opinion is that I should have gone around. This really was my first experience landing when I would have needed to make that decision. Up until this point all of my landings were without incident.
I am going to make it a point to commit to my mind that a go-around is always an option and really work on making it a matter of a split second decision.
From what I can tell, I caused the violent wobbling because I failed to use rudder in coordination with aileron to correct the initial roll.
Thank you for all of the fantastic advice!
I am going to make it a point to commit to my mind that a go-around is always an option and really work on making it a matter of a split second decision.
From what I can tell, I caused the violent wobbling because I failed to use rudder in coordination with aileron to correct the initial roll.
Thank you for all of the fantastic advice!
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I agree with the general thrust of the responses so far - go around - pile the power on while pitching level (assuming you are flaring) while rolling the wings level and getting on the rudder.
Whatever happens continuing the landing is probably not a good idea - you will have had going around drilled in to you and it should be familiar - in this case you found yourself somewhere unfamiliar, transitioning to a familiar situation (the go around) will have let you settle your nerves.
After such an event you will have been in unfamiliar territory, your nascent muscle memory would have been negated and the result was the heavy landing - another day maybe a dinged prop, collapsed nose wheel or a u/c leg punched up through the wing.
All that said - possibly initiating was not as bad as you thought or I would have thought your instructor would have taken over; if the landing was really hard I would have expected the instruction to have taken over and not continued the subsequent taken off and then inspected the u/c; finally, if it was so bad that you should have gone around I would have expected your instructor to have has you so at least one go around that he would have initiated without warning on one of your subsequent approaches.
Things are sometimes not so bad as we think.
Whatever happens continuing the landing is probably not a good idea - you will have had going around drilled in to you and it should be familiar - in this case you found yourself somewhere unfamiliar, transitioning to a familiar situation (the go around) will have let you settle your nerves.
After such an event you will have been in unfamiliar territory, your nascent muscle memory would have been negated and the result was the heavy landing - another day maybe a dinged prop, collapsed nose wheel or a u/c leg punched up through the wing.
All that said - possibly initiating was not as bad as you thought or I would have thought your instructor would have taken over; if the landing was really hard I would have expected the instruction to have taken over and not continued the subsequent taken off and then inspected the u/c; finally, if it was so bad that you should have gone around I would have expected your instructor to have has you so at least one go around that he would have initiated without warning on one of your subsequent approaches.
Things are sometimes not so bad as we think.
Last edited by Ebbie 2003; 31st Aug 2013 at 00:51.
Rather than thinking a go-around is an option to a landing, you're better off having the mindset that you are going to go-around and landing is a possible option. You're looking for every excuse to go-around and only if everything is just right (because, in spite of your best efforts, you failed to find a reason to go-around) will you end up landing.
Rather than thinking a go-around is an option to a landing, you're better off having the mindset that you are going to go-around and landing is a possible option. You're looking for every excuse to go-around and only if everything is just right (because, in spite of your best efforts, you failed to find a reason to go-around) will you end up landing.
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Remember that you are never actually trying to land the aircraft, but trying to fly for as long as possible 6 inches above the runway centerline without power on. If you don't have the aircraft in the right attitude, go around.
My instructor used to always re-enforce that...flare, look to the end of the end of the runway, attitude, fly to the end of the runway, attitude....if you don't like what you see go around.
Once I got that my 'arrivals' turned into 'landings' ( and even the occasional greaser!)
My instructor used to always re-enforce that...flare, look to the end of the end of the runway, attitude, fly to the end of the runway, attitude....if you don't like what you see go around.
Once I got that my 'arrivals' turned into 'landings' ( and even the occasional greaser!)
