Actions on Interception
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Defense in depth
The whole concept is defense in depth, the fast jets deal with the fast moving suspect aircraft a long way from the olyimpic site, the slow movers are intercepted by the helicopters and the missiles catch anything that gets past the first lines of defense.
As I have said before I am glad that I did not have to write the R.O.E. and am even more pleased I will not have to put them into practice.
As I have said before I am glad that I did not have to write the R.O.E. and am even more pleased I will not have to put them into practice.
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If some bimbler gets lost non-radio non-transponder in IMC, or flying VMC between layers or between buildups, and bimbles in the wrong direction, somebody is going to have to make some awfully hard decisions.
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Peter, the scenario you describe is exactly the one I am concerned at.
Pboyall - Very well put.
Torque Tonight - I suspect you are largely correct re: the response to a lost bimbler, however I am very concerned at some of the rhetoric being used in the sake of "security", especially talk of "Lethal Force", snipers in helicopters and aircraft carriers in the Thames. Certainly some of the rather extreme rhetoric produced by Das Guvernment with regards to security procedures, intercepts etc. seems to imply very clearly that a stray aircraft will likely be Fox Two'd.
We can't criticise the military, they are doing their job under orders from the buffoons in Whitehall, Wesminister and Downing Street.
My better half who hails from The Saff will thankfully be well away from it when the time comes. She already said all the nonsense is going to make life unbearable for everyone there and has decided to move away. Well away!
Smithy
Pboyall - Very well put.
Torque Tonight - I suspect you are largely correct re: the response to a lost bimbler, however I am very concerned at some of the rhetoric being used in the sake of "security", especially talk of "Lethal Force", snipers in helicopters and aircraft carriers in the Thames. Certainly some of the rather extreme rhetoric produced by Das Guvernment with regards to security procedures, intercepts etc. seems to imply very clearly that a stray aircraft will likely be Fox Two'd.
We can't criticise the military, they are doing their job under orders from the buffoons in Whitehall, Wesminister and Downing Street.
My better half who hails from The Saff will thankfully be well away from it when the time comes. She already said all the nonsense is going to make life unbearable for everyone there and has decided to move away. Well away!
Smithy
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Got to feel sorry for you guys that have to fly in the Atlas zone. I occasionally foray into those regions but it's no big deal for me to avoid it for a month or so. Would be feeling a bit miffed if I was based down there. I think I would just bugger off on holiday somewhere. (Which as it happens I am anyway.)
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I hope someone seriously includes the costs of all the commercial activities that WON'T be happening during these Games from the cooked-up totals of the supposed benefits are published.
The OP has picked up on what probably is the most likely cause of R112 infringements during the period of operation. No-one has mentioned it through any of the briefings I'm aware of or the published material.
An intriguing and intelligent point.
The only positive outcome is that the interceptor, once appraised of the real nature of the situation, may actually be in a very good position to HELP the infringer, but this is premised on ability to see them and the "lost" VFR a/c to maintain control.
Let's hope it's not something that becomes real.
Someone should be thinking it through though and it would be good for hear a clarification from Atlas.
The OP has picked up on what probably is the most likely cause of R112 infringements during the period of operation. No-one has mentioned it through any of the briefings I'm aware of or the published material.
An intriguing and intelligent point.
The only positive outcome is that the interceptor, once appraised of the real nature of the situation, may actually be in a very good position to HELP the infringer, but this is premised on ability to see them and the "lost" VFR a/c to maintain control.
Let's hope it's not something that becomes real.
Someone should be thinking it through though and it would be good for hear a clarification from Atlas.
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Jesus! This thread should be in Jet Blast!
The idea of a puma as an interceptor! Heck! A puma couldn't intercept a Piper Cub unless it was in the same postcode and at the same half of the day. And the idea of it carrying "a big gun"! Bwahahaha! Crew showing noticeboards??!! What are people smoking???
light Cessnas as a threat to national security? This is a development of the concept that killer mice armed with parsley are threatening our battleships, is it?
Oh dear. Paranoia coming on badly, isn't it? I'll just go take a breath of real fresh air (ie the sort without hallucinagenics in it) and cultiver mon jardin, non?
The idea of a puma as an interceptor! Heck! A puma couldn't intercept a Piper Cub unless it was in the same postcode and at the same half of the day. And the idea of it carrying "a big gun"! Bwahahaha! Crew showing noticeboards??!! What are people smoking???
light Cessnas as a threat to national security? This is a development of the concept that killer mice armed with parsley are threatening our battleships, is it?
Oh dear. Paranoia coming on badly, isn't it? I'll just go take a breath of real fresh air (ie the sort without hallucinagenics in it) and cultiver mon jardin, non?
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Got to feel sorry for you guys that have to fly in the Atlas zone. I occasionally foray into those regions but it's no big deal for me to avoid it for a month or so. Would be feeling a bit miffed if I was based down there. I think I would just bugger off on holiday somewhere. (Which as it happens I am anyway.)
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Significantly less silly than allowing it to hit its target.
What they are trying to do is to disrupt our normal way of life and looking at the security measures they are making a good start.
We have to assume that any and all threats are genuine as we can't afford a single failure. They can afford many failures.
Perhaps my memory is playing tricks but I seem to recall a more grown-up attitude during the IRA campaigns of the 70s/80s where we also had regular killings and bombings in London and elsewhere.
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An F16 has a Vs of the order of 150kt, depending on loading.
There are intercept videos on youtube with F16s flying along airliners and the F16 had to break off because the stall warner was going off continuously as the 737 slowed down to its Vref of ~140kt.
What is the Vs of the Typhoon? It can't be that much different, though I suppose the powerful fighter jets can fly awfully slowly on the back of the curve
There are intercept videos on youtube with F16s flying along airliners and the F16 had to break off because the stall warner was going off continuously as the 737 slowed down to its Vref of ~140kt.
What is the Vs of the Typhoon? It can't be that much different, though I suppose the powerful fighter jets can fly awfully slowly on the back of the curve
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An F16 has a Vs of the order of 150kt, depending on loading.
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Apologies... just looked up an email from somebody who knows. Vref, well loaded with stuff to shoot at people, is 155-160kt.
That suggests Vs is about 120+ kt. But you can't actually fly at Vs, usefully.
That suggests Vs is about 120+ kt. But you can't actually fly at Vs, usefully.
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Agaricus, how little you know. The fast jet boys' egos were very deflated when the only real interception for the G8 at Gleneagles a few years ago was achieved by the rotary mates. The big guns affixed to our airframes were more than capable of ruining somebody's day. And it's not that Cessnas are a particular threat, it's about identifying unknown aircraft and reacting accordingly. Not a difficult concept.
Robin, aircraft crashing out of control in built up areas and possibly in many bits, historically results in fairly light casualties on the ground. We all know the results of airliners used as weapons successfully hitting their targets. The decision to shoot down an airliner is certainly a case of the lesser of two evils. You are right that the terrorists score a victory either way: either they carry out succesful atrocities or the force us to accept enormous inconvenience and loss of freedom in order to defend against it.
Robin, aircraft crashing out of control in built up areas and possibly in many bits, historically results in fairly light casualties on the ground. We all know the results of airliners used as weapons successfully hitting their targets. The decision to shoot down an airliner is certainly a case of the lesser of two evils. You are right that the terrorists score a victory either way: either they carry out succesful atrocities or the force us to accept enormous inconvenience and loss of freedom in order to defend against it.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 15th May 2012 at 00:08.
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Obviously you haven't read the published information Liam. The stall speed of a helicopter with a big gun hanging out each door is what exactly? Perhaps the Typhoons are to guard against the faster moving threats.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 2nd Jul 2012 at 21:54.
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It might sound a silly question, but I wonder about the logistics of following something flying on your left, especially when flying through the wake at close range may prove fatal.
