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Old 9th May 2012, 09:01   #101 (permalink)
 
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Just trying to make it easy for you to understand.

[Whoa, posts are going out of sequence again] 10:25
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:01   #102 (permalink)
 
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And yes fairly quickly the movement of the controls will become simultaneous and instinctive, but one control retains primacy, depending on technique appropriate for the aircraft type.
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:05   #103 (permalink)
 
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Who said I'm not using the technique, pretty sure earlier I said I'm using the technique efficiently without even thinking about it, but when you think about it you start doing things in steps. I'm always trying to take stuff in, askign questions and so sorry if I come across a bit ignorant in this thread.
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:07   #104 (permalink)
 
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You did. Many times.
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:10   #105 (permalink)
 
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Sorry are those abrupt full-stops supposed to make your post look a bit more reinforced, because it didn't
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:10   #106 (permalink)
 
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EGKB

Are you really so insecure?

If you happen to be the proud owner of a Lightning then you can forget pitch to control your speed as you will hit 40K standing on your tail.
If You are the proud owner of a Glider on a still day then only pitch will control your speed.

There is a whole spectrum in between! The less power you have the more pitch becomes the dominant force. The more power you have and the equation balances out.

When the Citation I fly is locked onto the ILS the autopilot using pitch to follow the glide power controls the speed.

As you are flying a Phut Phut Bang trainer with loads of drag and little power where do you think your emphasis should lie especially as you are not experienced and we all do not want you as a hole in the ground?

Pace
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:35   #107 (permalink)
 
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EGKB, you have been asked by your instructor to use power for glide and pitch for speed and have been advised by the majority of posts on here to do likewise (while explaining that the two are linked, but that immediately and instinctively changing pitch when speed gets low can save your life) Any basic flying training book you read will say the same.

You are going to have to convince the instructor that you are safe to fly before he sends you off on your 1st solo. Doing things "your" way rather than the way taught is likely not going to inspire him with confidence.

Good luck with the rest of your training anyway.
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:38   #108 (permalink)
 
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" Doing things "your" way rather than the way taught is likely not going to inspire him with confidence. "

I'm not doing things my way, I AM using the technique he suggested. I'm just saying it seems odd to do things backwards?

And what "things" I do everything as taught, please read...
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:43   #109 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Attitude = speed control/power = pitch
WHAT?!

So backwards, I landed fine last time doing it my own way.
That's your first post. Here's your last post:
Quote:
I'm not doing things my way
My last post to you was short and sweet because considered and detailed responses seem to be unwelcome. Good luck to you and your instructor. That's all you're getting from me.
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:45   #110 (permalink)
 
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There is no backwards about it EGKB, you are the one doing things backwards.
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:47   #111 (permalink)
 
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And another quote:

Quote:
...definitely won't be using that technique ever again
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:47   #112 (permalink)
 
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Stick with it mate. It will become natural and instinctive before you know it. These are the building blocks for all your future flying. Make sure your foundations are sound.
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Old 9th May 2012, 10:00   #113 (permalink)
 
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The mistake I made was...

I am actually using the correct technique, however. When instructed to do it by my instructor it all became a blur of steps, where as before it was natural.

As said before when you breathe it's natural, no thinking about it. But now you've realised you're breathing it becomes a chore and unnatural....
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Old 9th May 2012, 10:05   #114 (permalink)

 
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I suspect EGBK = TROLL,

If not my sympathies to the instructors.... No doubt (if) he/she gains a licence we can expect to read another chapter of the EGBK chronicle published by the AAIB at some point in the future.

There is a "fantastic" instructor who could help - FAA Training - BFR FLYERS

I seem to remember his post echoed the thoughts of EGBK when he was learning to fly!!
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Old 9th May 2012, 10:13   #115 (permalink)
 
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I give up. There is soooo much you don't know and I don't just mean hands on skills.

The basic skills and mindset you are taught in the beginning are the building blocks for the more advanced manouevers. Shortcutting them now will leave a gap in your training. The precise order of some of the early training is important. When mastered it makes understanding the big picture easier.

We had an expert here in Scotland a couple of weeks ago who new better than his instructors. He's dead now.

D.O.
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Old 9th May 2012, 10:18   #116 (permalink)
 
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'EGKB' reminds me of 'Dariuszw'

Could he be a reincarnation?
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Old 9th May 2012, 10:19   #117 (permalink)
 
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Don't overfil.....

Thanks, which is exactly why I'm using the recommended technique.

EGKB ,
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Old 9th May 2012, 10:29   #118 (permalink)
 
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Ah

Ah, the old argument. I would say cut the guy some slack. There are quite a few schools and instructors that teach with the attitude primary method and it works very well. Some of you guys are giving him the impression that airspeed primary is the only way that is ever taught, which is incorrect. EGKB this discussion is almost as old as powered flight itself.
Part of the reason that flying was often taught with power as an altitude control and elevator pitch as a speed control was a hangover from the days of early underpowered aircraft, when they often made glide or low power approaches because of the higher probability of engine failure. This often put them dangerously close to the underside of the lift/drag curve if they got too low and pitched up even a little so they would need lots more of the available power to make it to the runway, so the thinking was....why not apply the power first before the airspeed got too low when you pitched up, kind of an insurance policy against excessive angle of attack.

I don't think he's as naive and arrogant as some of you guys think, he knows airplanes don't fly around like spaceships in a video game, right EGKB?

I'm not going to get into the technical aspects of attitude flying here as I'm not an instructor and these are things he needs to sort out between him and his instructor(s).

At the end of the day the important thing is that pilots need to develop an innate understanding of angle of attack and most do develop this whichever method they initially learned with.

Bottom line, ALWAYS listen to your instructor but if you're really not happy find another one or another school because there are schools that teach attitude reference flying, but it's not something you can learn solo, you have to be shown how to do it properly.
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Old 9th May 2012, 11:00   #119 (permalink)
 
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Pilot DAR, is the flaps 30 case on that modified Siai Marchetti 1019 purely down to slipstream?
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Old 9th May 2012, 11:07   #120 (permalink)
 
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What I consider the best instructor I ever had (though he was a cowboy in every other way, and eventually vanished to get away from a number of people who were looking for him) taught me the single most important thing I ever learnt (for the sort of flying I do which is non-aerobatic and flying mostly from A to B, with some cloud hole drilling thrown in) which was that one should always TRIM for the desired airspeed in all phases of flight.

Yes of course it is true that not using the trim wheel and just pushing or pulling the elevator back and forth will most definitely change your airspeed because that is what the elevator trim wheel ultimately does anyway, but if you don't TRIM you are flying an aircraft which wants to fly at an airspeed that is different to your present airspeed, and this is going to bite you when one day you get distracted and lose concentration and don't watch the ASI and you happen to be trimmed for some low speed and you have also reduced the engine power for some reason.....

If one is going to teach somebody to fly "instinctively" then there are empteen ways to achieve that, and provided he is on the ball at all times none of these should kill him. But, and with the disclaimer that I have only 12 years and 1500hrs, all that I have seen over that time supports my view that the safest way to fly is to fly by numbers i.e. know what power settings should give you what speeds, and trim to achieve those speeds. If you don't do that, flying a plane is a lot more work and you are constantly chasing the thing.

Take that solo student who got killed when Southend ATC asked him to do an orbit. I don't really think his instructor ever taught him to fly to his plane's performance numbers. He was probably like me - in all of my PPL training nobody ever explained to me what the trim wheel does. I was told that it is used to reduce the pressure on the elevator, so your arms don't get sore. Well, that's true, but that is not the primary function.

Not all instructors are good - by a long way. The first one I had had 150hrs TT at the time (or so he told me).
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