Manchester crash reported BBC
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Managing GA Risk
As a GA pilot YOU are responsible for all aspects of safe flight. If the airfield location is in your mind "unsafe" you go fly somewhere else. Lets not blame anyone for this accident. GA carries risks and the PIC is the person responsible for mangaing these risks. Full stop.
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Safety Improvements are Urgent
I and many other pilots based at Barton have taken this incident very hard, it is just so sad. Whilst we await the AAIB investigation results it is of no consolation to the family of the pilot who has died or for the young guy who is still on the critical list.
I was at Barton yesterday talking to a number of pilots who are based there and to some of the staff who help to run the airport, together with a few instructors. All of us agreed that taking off from runways 09R or 09L presents an almost impossible situation if one encounters engine problems on take-off. I understand that the media have been positive pests in approaching various personnel at Ravenair and Barton. They have been desperate to get hold of the names of the two people involved so that they can probably pester their family's.
The airport was certainly there before the houses, in fact long before. It does appear to be stupid to build houses so close to an airport. I see that the airport is closed today and that a crane is operating 650m from the airport - I pressume this is related to recovering wreckage, but gives a clear idea of just how far the aircraft had travelled before the crash.
Whatever the AAIB results show, there will be questions raised as to how safety can be improved. Taking off from runways 27R or 27L creates far less of a problem should one encounter an engine failure on take-off as there is very little by way of property to avoid. There are some electricity pylons at 273 ft across the flight path but one can probably avoid these.
Those familiar with Barton know that all runways are grass, bumpy and not that long. This means that a decision to abort a take-off can be a dilema. (I do not generally take passengers out of Barton preferring to use another aircraft at John Lennon Airport Liverpool.) Many pilots have been pressing for improvements to the runways for several years and asked for at least one tarmac runway. The airport is operated by Peel Holdings and hopefully they will now come forward with some positive solutions.
Ironically Ravenair Flight Training School at Barton was to close last Friday and relocate to Liverpool. Their remaining Tomahawk was transferred to Liverpool yesterday.
I was at Barton yesterday talking to a number of pilots who are based there and to some of the staff who help to run the airport, together with a few instructors. All of us agreed that taking off from runways 09R or 09L presents an almost impossible situation if one encounters engine problems on take-off. I understand that the media have been positive pests in approaching various personnel at Ravenair and Barton. They have been desperate to get hold of the names of the two people involved so that they can probably pester their family's.
The airport was certainly there before the houses, in fact long before. It does appear to be stupid to build houses so close to an airport. I see that the airport is closed today and that a crane is operating 650m from the airport - I pressume this is related to recovering wreckage, but gives a clear idea of just how far the aircraft had travelled before the crash.
Whatever the AAIB results show, there will be questions raised as to how safety can be improved. Taking off from runways 27R or 27L creates far less of a problem should one encounter an engine failure on take-off as there is very little by way of property to avoid. There are some electricity pylons at 273 ft across the flight path but one can probably avoid these.
Those familiar with Barton know that all runways are grass, bumpy and not that long. This means that a decision to abort a take-off can be a dilema. (I do not generally take passengers out of Barton preferring to use another aircraft at John Lennon Airport Liverpool.) Many pilots have been pressing for improvements to the runways for several years and asked for at least one tarmac runway. The airport is operated by Peel Holdings and hopefully they will now come forward with some positive solutions.
Ironically Ravenair Flight Training School at Barton was to close last Friday and relocate to Liverpool. Their remaining Tomahawk was transferred to Liverpool yesterday.
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Jim.
Firstly thanks for the factual information. I also fly from a compromised strip ( HT lines, housing etc) and I sympathise with the pilots involved. If im flying family / friends, I won't use the dangerous departure. Solo or light...for sure I will.
I'm sure both pilots knew the risks inherent and I am sorry that on this occasion they were unlucky.
Im convinced that GA is as safe as you want it to be and I'm sure both pilots were aware of the risks involved regarding this particular departure.
RIP fellow aviator and get well soon to the surviving pilot.
Best,
SSS
Firstly thanks for the factual information. I also fly from a compromised strip ( HT lines, housing etc) and I sympathise with the pilots involved. If im flying family / friends, I won't use the dangerous departure. Solo or light...for sure I will.
I'm sure both pilots knew the risks inherent and I am sorry that on this occasion they were unlucky.
Im convinced that GA is as safe as you want it to be and I'm sure both pilots were aware of the risks involved regarding this particular departure.
RIP fellow aviator and get well soon to the surviving pilot.
Best,
SSS
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goldeneaglepilot
Yes indeed, it certainly is.
The "expert on a respected professional pilot's website" isn't a pilot but hopes to get a PPL one day.
H.
Good example of why we should type posts with caution
The "expert on a respected professional pilot's website" isn't a pilot but hopes to get a PPL one day.
H.
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I learned to fly at Barton in 1978, flew a based Chipmunk and many other types from then until a few years ago when the group moved to John Lennon, and have probably made hundreds of take offs from 09, later 09s north and south, still later 09s left and right.
About 10 years ago I got a partial engine failure on take off from 09L. But I was luckier than the guys on Friday; the engine kept going but at much reduced power and we made it back in. Had it stopped, or developed even a tad less power than it did, we'd have had absolutely nowhere to go.
Have the pilots been named yet? I've a horrible dread that the older one may have been someone I knew.
About 10 years ago I got a partial engine failure on take off from 09L. But I was luckier than the guys on Friday; the engine kept going but at much reduced power and we made it back in. Had it stopped, or developed even a tad less power than it did, we'd have had absolutely nowhere to go.
Have the pilots been named yet? I've a horrible dread that the older one may have been someone I knew.
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 2nd Aug 2011 at 11:02.
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Vince, The pilot has now been named..
BBC News - Tributes to Salford death crash pilot Ian Daglish
Sad day indeed..
BBC News - Tributes to Salford death crash pilot Ian Daglish
Sad day indeed..
Guest
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Safeguarding is a red herring. It is divided into two distinct parts; officially safeguarded aerodromes and those that have tacit arrangements with the Local Authority Planners.
If you study the official list, it comprises mainly of previously government owned civil airports. It's quite a short list and so the majority of current licensed aerodromes aren't officially safeguarded. Add to this that safeguarding came in around the time of the second world war then the 'tween war semis of Peel Green fall out side this arrangement.
The flats, maisonettes and bungalows right on the 27 threshold step down only because the aeroclub made representations in the 60s about approaches and takeoffs.
I think the 'we were here first' argument will be self defeating. Better the 100s of thousands of safe takeoffs and landings over more than 50 years.
Sir George Cayley
If you study the official list, it comprises mainly of previously government owned civil airports. It's quite a short list and so the majority of current licensed aerodromes aren't officially safeguarded. Add to this that safeguarding came in around the time of the second world war then the 'tween war semis of Peel Green fall out side this arrangement.
The flats, maisonettes and bungalows right on the 27 threshold step down only because the aeroclub made representations in the 60s about approaches and takeoffs.
I think the 'we were here first' argument will be self defeating. Better the 100s of thousands of safe takeoffs and landings over more than 50 years.
Sir George Cayley
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Regardless of which was there first (the airport or the housing), general aviation is, generally speaking, regulated more to protect non-participants than participants. Rule 5 provides for this, but repeatedly (Barton, Biggin Hill, Southampton, most recently) does not work because pilots do not comply with it. The Authority doesn't prosecute, though, so that bit of the Rule is derelict and needs attention, either by way of prosecutions to make people comply, or by an acceptance that an aircraft which has suffered a power failure has some sort of 'right' to come to earth on someone's home...
I don't fly single-engined aircraft any more, but respect the opinion of a close friend who refuses to operate an SEP aircraft into or out of a number of aerodromes, including Barton, which he views as simply unsafe and, in respect of Rule 5, impossible to operate to or from lawfully.
I don't fly single-engined aircraft any more, but respect the opinion of a close friend who refuses to operate an SEP aircraft into or out of a number of aerodromes, including Barton, which he views as simply unsafe and, in respect of Rule 5, impossible to operate to or from lawfully.
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Robin, Lockerbie was terrorism for heaven's sake! Heathrow was non fatal on an airport and extremely rare compared to engine failures in SEPs and the Hudson would just as easily have brought down a single or four-holer...
Dialogue by all means, but idiocy, no.
Dialogue by all means, but idiocy, no.
in respect of Rule 5, impossible to operate to or from lawfully
Exemptions from the low flying prohibitions
6 The exemptions from the low flying prohibitions are as follows:
(a) Landing and taking off
(i) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the low flying prohibitions in so far as it is
flying in accordance with normal aviation practice for the purpose of:
(aa) taking off from, landing at or practising approaches to landing at; or
(bb) checking navigational aids or procedures at,
a Government or licensed aerodrome.
(ii) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the 500 feet rule when landing and takingof
in accordance with normal aviation practice or air-taxiing.
6 The exemptions from the low flying prohibitions are as follows:
(a) Landing and taking off
(i) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the low flying prohibitions in so far as it is
flying in accordance with normal aviation practice for the purpose of:
(aa) taking off from, landing at or practising approaches to landing at; or
(bb) checking navigational aids or procedures at,
a Government or licensed aerodrome.
(ii) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the 500 feet rule when landing and takingof
in accordance with normal aviation practice or air-taxiing.
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Nevertheless it is true that the last non aviation related ground fatality from a plane coming down is believed to be Lockerbie.
American Airlines Flight 587 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I think IO540 meant in the UK.
There was also that man struck and killed by a SEP attempting a forced landing on a beach in the US a couple of years ago IIRC, and of course the several Antonov that that have come down on crowded African townships in recent years.
There was also that man struck and killed by a SEP attempting a forced landing on a beach in the US a couple of years ago IIRC, and of course the several Antonov that that have come down on crowded African townships in recent years.
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There are some truly shocking posts on this thread. At best some are misinformed/dillusional at worst totally inappropriate. It worries me that I may have to share the sky with some of you - frankly it scares the cr@p out of me... My thoughts go to the survivor's recovery and comfort for the pilots wife, children and friends.. P
One last point.. How often do you "experts" practice efato and pfl's? In my experience the vast majority don't do it enough.. Next time it may be YOUR donker that goes quiet - not someone else's...
Ive had a major engine problem on climb out and got back in.. A truly frightening experience..
One last point.. How often do you "experts" practice efato and pfl's? In my experience the vast majority don't do it enough.. Next time it may be YOUR donker that goes quiet - not someone else's...
Ive had a major engine problem on climb out and got back in.. A truly frightening experience..
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negligible threat to third parties
The truth is that, though light aircraft do pose a risk to those of us who fly them as the death of Mr Dalglish very sadly illustrates, they pose almost no risk at all to people on the ground and I can't remember a single case in the UK when someone on the ground not at an airfield was killed by a light aircraft.
By contrast cars, buses and trucks kill pedestrians in their hundreds every year. Unfortunately, the public perceive the virtually non-existent risk from light aircraft as far more serious than the all too real risk from road transport hence the the news coverage of the Barton accident banging on about what a " miracle" it was that nobody on the ground was hurt while almost ignoring the fact that the two people aboard the aircraft were at that time both in a critical state from which one of them has since succumbed.
This seems to be unique to the reporting of light aircraft accidents. I've never seen a report on a road traffic accident that said that someone was killed when their car left the road but miraculously no pedestrians were hurt so it seems that we are considered to be engaged in a rather dodgy activity that the public needs to be protected from. What we probably need are spokespeople who can make this point whenever a light aircraft accident "miraculously" misses every school, playground, hospital and care home within a three mile radius. Something that AOPA or the LAA should be considering perhaps?
By contrast cars, buses and trucks kill pedestrians in their hundreds every year. Unfortunately, the public perceive the virtually non-existent risk from light aircraft as far more serious than the all too real risk from road transport hence the the news coverage of the Barton accident banging on about what a " miracle" it was that nobody on the ground was hurt while almost ignoring the fact that the two people aboard the aircraft were at that time both in a critical state from which one of them has since succumbed.
This seems to be unique to the reporting of light aircraft accidents. I've never seen a report on a road traffic accident that said that someone was killed when their car left the road but miraculously no pedestrians were hurt so it seems that we are considered to be engaged in a rather dodgy activity that the public needs to be protected from. What we probably need are spokespeople who can make this point whenever a light aircraft accident "miraculously" misses every school, playground, hospital and care home within a three mile radius. Something that AOPA or the LAA should be considering perhaps?
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My deepest sympahty to Mr Dalglish's family and my sincerest thoughts with the young passengar and his family.
May I humbly suggest starting a seperate thread for finger-pointing.
camlobe
May I humbly suggest starting a seperate thread for finger-pointing.
camlobe
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Better the 100s of thousands of safe takeoffs and landings over more than 50 years.
This has been a tragic accident, but an accident nonetheless.
I've said it before, but I was always told that if the engine fails off 09 put it in the ship canal. A terrifying prospect, but an option.
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BBC now saying the aircraft was on fire when airborne.
If true (and we all know about the "quality" of journos in the "must have a headline today" department) this is very worrying particularly in light of the latest regs from the cynical money grabbing Euro gravy train known as EASA (the "S" stands of "screw") which makes it difficult on a European registered (e.g. G-reg) aircraft to replace originally specified rubber hoses with like-for-like modern teflon replacements.
On an N-reg you can fit teflon hoses and most N-reg owners have done that. A Piper will be all-American and won't have any expensive ISO (metric) fittings which cause hoses to cost a few hundred quid. Most American-pattern Teflon fuel hoses, fireproof and tested to 1500psi) are about £70 and they have no degradation mechanism (in this application), have no inherent life limit, and on some aircraft types (e.g. my TB20) they are not life limited even in situ.
It will be interesting what comes out of this sad and pointless accident...
The plane was on fire as it took off from Barton Aerodrome, the BBC understands.
On an N-reg you can fit teflon hoses and most N-reg owners have done that. A Piper will be all-American and won't have any expensive ISO (metric) fittings which cause hoses to cost a few hundred quid. Most American-pattern Teflon fuel hoses, fireproof and tested to 1500psi) are about £70 and they have no degradation mechanism (in this application), have no inherent life limit, and on some aircraft types (e.g. my TB20) they are not life limited even in situ.
It will be interesting what comes out of this sad and pointless accident...