Jerry cans in aircraft
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Agree or disagree with the practice, avgas & etc has frequently been transported in aircraft because of necessity; leglislation has nothing to do with practical needs except get in the way. We used to always carry jerry cans of petrol for our waterpumps and avgas for the a/c in the hoppers of C188s, they use to sit right on top of the waterpumps themselves, also full of petrol.
Those offering advice on ferry tanks, get real. If our opening poster is hiring an aircraft, ferry tanks are not an option to him; back to flightsim kiddies.
Those offering advice on ferry tanks, get real. If our opening poster is hiring an aircraft, ferry tanks are not an option to him; back to flightsim kiddies.
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Those offering advice on ferry tanks, get real. If our opening poster is hiring an aircraft, ferry tanks are not an option to him; back to flightsim kiddies.
If that's for me, TurtlePac do collapsible Jerry cans that don't need to be plumbed into the aircraft. Bit pricy though. May be easier, may be more adapted to aircraft use - that's all.Now, where's my flightsim?
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What does one do about venting jerrycans? The pressure difference is quite significant. Obviously the vent needs to be at the top otherwise fuel will come out.
I know of pilots who fly with unofficial ferry tanks, well outside the UK. It is a huge mission capability improver because so many airports don't have avgas.
One case I know uses a thick plastic tank in a wooden frame. It was properly made for the job, and is both vented and "pressurised" by a second pitot tube. I am not sure why it needs the pressure because the plane is low wing and the tank (about 20USG) lives on the back seat, so it is higher than the wing tanks. Obviously the tank does need an external vent because it needs a vent and you don't want fumes in the cockpit, but the reason for the positive pressure is not obvious to me.
I know of pilots who fly with unofficial ferry tanks, well outside the UK. It is a huge mission capability improver because so many airports don't have avgas.
One case I know uses a thick plastic tank in a wooden frame. It was properly made for the job, and is both vented and "pressurised" by a second pitot tube. I am not sure why it needs the pressure because the plane is low wing and the tank (about 20USG) lives on the back seat, so it is higher than the wing tanks. Obviously the tank does need an external vent because it needs a vent and you don't want fumes in the cockpit, but the reason for the positive pressure is not obvious to me.
I've flown (privately) for many years, frequently with a gaggle of jerry cans on the back seat - never had a comment from ; fuellers, CAA members, over picky maintenance jobsworths.... Providing you use your nonce, use high quality and serviceable containers and don't try and pull -4g when they're not strapped in, I can't see there's any issue 
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@sherburn2LA....I presume you're talking of in-flight refuelling, in which case the 'elf 'n safety jobsworths are more important than W&B.
Firstly, you'd need a written risk assessment, then approved safety-harness,hard-hat and high-vis vest. Your footwear would have to be antistatic and, of course,your mandatory safety-tether would need to carry a proof-loading certification.
If your aircraft is of high-wing design, you'll need to work on your methodology for gaining access to the upper surface (approved step-ladder with appropriate hooks? )
Nearly forgot the goggles, respirator and gloves needed when pouring a volatile,toxic liquid in a windy area.
Firstly, you'd need a written risk assessment, then approved safety-harness,hard-hat and high-vis vest. Your footwear would have to be antistatic and, of course,your mandatory safety-tether would need to carry a proof-loading certification.
If your aircraft is of high-wing design, you'll need to work on your methodology for gaining access to the upper surface (approved step-ladder with appropriate hooks? )
Nearly forgot the goggles, respirator and gloves needed when pouring a volatile,toxic liquid in a windy area.
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What is the legal position on weight and balance when you are out on the wing filling the tanks
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A few years ago I was at the HISWA (boat show) and somebody had a real neat solution for this. It was essentially a 1/2" hose with a very crude one-way valve on one end, arranged so that the fuel could enter the hose from that side, but not exit.
You simply place the fuel container at a point which is higher than the fuel tank (in an aircraft that would be on the wing), dip the one-way valve end into the container, and put the other end in the aircrafts tank. Shake the one-way-valve up and down a few times so that the fuel is lifted up into the hose, and hey presto, instant syphon. His demo 5 liter container drained in 10 seconds or so.
No spilled fuel, no need to suck on a hose, no sloshing and the container is actually in contact with the fuselage, so not a lot of chance for a static buildup.
I still wish I had bought one of those hoses right there and then.
You simply place the fuel container at a point which is higher than the fuel tank (in an aircraft that would be on the wing), dip the one-way valve end into the container, and put the other end in the aircrafts tank. Shake the one-way-valve up and down a few times so that the fuel is lifted up into the hose, and hey presto, instant syphon. His demo 5 liter container drained in 10 seconds or so.
No spilled fuel, no need to suck on a hose, no sloshing and the container is actually in contact with the fuselage, so not a lot of chance for a static buildup.
I still wish I had bought one of those hoses right there and then.
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From South Africa greetings and I wish you all a wonderful festive season.
What I'm about to type will probably be shot down but here goes.
When I MUST (I've done this once), I fly with as much as 80 litres of Mogas in my STCéd PA 22-150 with 4 X 20 litre metal jerry cans (good quality) in the back of the aerie. Avgas refuelling facilities are not as conveniently located as they once were.
I have an earth strap for all the cans. I ensure they are secure and I make every attempt to contain static by placing fabric (towels) between the cans. When I refuel, I attempt to do the right things right.
* - Neutralise the potential between the Jerry can and the aircraft by making contact with the nose wheel towing attachment and the Jerry Can - and I also have an earth strap I bond between both the Jerry Can and the aircraft when refuelling on top the wing.
* - I use a Mr Funnel - ensures that taints be they water or dirt stay out of the aircraft fuel system.
* - I check the vapour pressure. Being a high wing, its no problem really.
* - I check for Water.
* - I do NOT close the cans afterwards and leave the lids open.
** - This is probably the purpose of the post - what do you suggest? My logic says in the well ventilated aircraft I fly, no problem and obviously, any gas build up dangers are minimised. Am I correct??
* - I then repack them ensuring insulation/isolation from one another.
* - They are secured.
What more really is there to do?
What I'm about to type will probably be shot down but here goes.
When I MUST (I've done this once), I fly with as much as 80 litres of Mogas in my STCéd PA 22-150 with 4 X 20 litre metal jerry cans (good quality) in the back of the aerie. Avgas refuelling facilities are not as conveniently located as they once were.
I have an earth strap for all the cans. I ensure they are secure and I make every attempt to contain static by placing fabric (towels) between the cans. When I refuel, I attempt to do the right things right.
* - Neutralise the potential between the Jerry can and the aircraft by making contact with the nose wheel towing attachment and the Jerry Can - and I also have an earth strap I bond between both the Jerry Can and the aircraft when refuelling on top the wing.
* - I use a Mr Funnel - ensures that taints be they water or dirt stay out of the aircraft fuel system.
* - I check the vapour pressure. Being a high wing, its no problem really.
* - I check for Water.
* - I do NOT close the cans afterwards and leave the lids open.
** - This is probably the purpose of the post - what do you suggest? My logic says in the well ventilated aircraft I fly, no problem and obviously, any gas build up dangers are minimised. Am I correct??
* - I then repack them ensuring insulation/isolation from one another.
* - They are secured.
What more really is there to do?
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Call me conservative
I would not even think about it.
I went for fuel for the garden equipment in winter time around 0°C.
Now it is 20°C here.
Last weeks, I had to relieve pressure form the cans at regular intervals.
The fuel and air in the cans heating up build pressure inside the cans.
And that is while not even leaving the ground.
I dare not imagine what a 8.000 ft density altitude would add to that pressure.
No fuel in cans in my airplane, thank you.
I went for fuel for the garden equipment in winter time around 0°C.
Now it is 20°C here.
Last weeks, I had to relieve pressure form the cans at regular intervals.
The fuel and air in the cans heating up build pressure inside the cans.
And that is while not even leaving the ground.
I dare not imagine what a 8.000 ft density altitude would add to that pressure.
No fuel in cans in my airplane, thank you.
Hi Sam. Although I'm not able to find a reference for you at the moment, I understand that even carrying a litre of engine oil in the passenger cabin is now illegal.(dangerous goods) If that's the case, I'm sure 20 litres of avgas will be.
MJ
MJ
I would not even think about it.
I went for fuel for the garden equipment in winter time around 0°C.
Now it is 20°C here.
Last weeks, I had to relieve pressure form the cans at regular intervals.
The fuel and air in the cans heating up build pressure inside the cans.
And that is while not even leaving the ground.
I dare not imagine what a 8.000 ft density altitude would add to that pressure.
No fuel in cans in my airplane, thank you.
I went for fuel for the garden equipment in winter time around 0°C.
Now it is 20°C here.
Last weeks, I had to relieve pressure form the cans at regular intervals.
The fuel and air in the cans heating up build pressure inside the cans.
And that is while not even leaving the ground.
I dare not imagine what a 8.000 ft density altitude would add to that pressure.
No fuel in cans in my airplane, thank you.
I routinely ship gasoline, crude oil, naphtha etc etc samples by air world wide. There are certain (IATA) regulations with regard to packing and dangerous good declarations that have to be followed, but its nothing onerous. Jerry cans would be fine provided they were further packed into crates in accordance with the regs.
Indeed, typical sample cans used for gasoline are far less robust than jerry cans, so I would have no concerns regarding pressures etc. Particularly the case for Avgas, which is a low vapour pressure fuel in any event (if it wasn't it would rapidly vaporise at altitude)
Incidentally, "venting the cans at intervals" would have no affect on reducing pressure other then momentarily - the fuel will quickly regain equilibrium pressure (which is based upon a liquid's vapour pressure and temperature) once re-sealed.
M9 (Consultant fuel scientist)
Last edited by Mariner9; 13th May 2015 at 20:29.
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Incidentally, "venting the cans at intervals" would have no affect on reducing pressure other then momentarily - the fuel will quickly regain equilibrium pressure (which is based upon a liquid's vapour pressure and temperature) once re-sealed.
I won't say that I have never done it, but I sure do it as little as possible, and with caution, at low altitude!
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I can't think of anything in the ANO etc that explicitly bans the carrying of Jerry cans of Avgas.
It is done very widely by the floatplane and bush pilots in Canada and Alaska. Often carried in the floats.
The Alaska Bushwheels people advertise a five gallon collapsible container for 'Liquids'. I don't think there's much doubt about its intended use. That also benefits from not needing venting and can be rolled up after use.
Last time I needed to do it was for flying to North East Canada and I used the polyethylene jugs that motor racers commonly use. They can be secured easily and have a safety vent in the handles.
It is done very widely by the floatplane and bush pilots in Canada and Alaska. Often carried in the floats.
The Alaska Bushwheels people advertise a five gallon collapsible container for 'Liquids'. I don't think there's much doubt about its intended use. That also benefits from not needing venting and can be rolled up after use.
Last time I needed to do it was for flying to North East Canada and I used the polyethylene jugs that motor racers commonly use. They can be secured easily and have a safety vent in the handles.
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Sam,
The Dangerous goods legislation points to ICAO Doc 9284 for the definition of dangerous goods.
The only snag with that is that document is only available to commercial operators and not to Joe Public.
There are many things that the airlines prohibit, but are regularly carried on private flights like fire extinguishers and gas bottles in life-jackets and rafts.
I can't recall that the act has ever been invoked for a private flight. It would be hard to convict someone for not obeying instructions that he was not permitted to access.
The 'endangering aircraft' rule is far less specific and would be up to a court to decide what is reasonable. A life raft or extinguisher activating in a small cockpit is a significant hazard, but one that is readily accepted
The Dangerous goods legislation points to ICAO Doc 9284 for the definition of dangerous goods.
The only snag with that is that document is only available to commercial operators and not to Joe Public.
There are many things that the airlines prohibit, but are regularly carried on private flights like fire extinguishers and gas bottles in life-jackets and rafts.
I can't recall that the act has ever been invoked for a private flight. It would be hard to convict someone for not obeying instructions that he was not permitted to access.
The 'endangering aircraft' rule is far less specific and would be up to a court to decide what is reasonable. A life raft or extinguisher activating in a small cockpit is a significant hazard, but one that is readily accepted
Which might be fine if the container is completely full. But if there is an airspace in the container, being not completely full (because you filled it to the nominal capacity as marked) then there is quite a lot of airspace, which is going to build pressure with altitude increase.
I say again, the pressure within the vapour phase of the can will depend only upon the RVP (Reid Vapour Pressure) and temperature of the liquid. External pressure will have no influence on the pressure within whatsoever (though it will of course affect the differential pressure between the can and its environment).
Gasoline vapour pressure at 20C is above atmospheric, but not by much. If the can can therefore readily survive being taken to 10K feet empty - it could do so when filled with gasoline. As I said above, I routinely ship gasoline in cans in aircraft - they have to (and will) withstand possible explosive cabin depressurisation at FL380 and therefore FL100 in GA is no problem whatsoever from a pressure POV.
Incidentally, an "airspace" is absolutely necessary to allow for possible volumetric expansion of the liquid contents due temperature increase. (The design of a standard jerry can is such that it cannot be accidentally overfilled to ensure there is always sufficient liquid expansion space).
All that said however, I am not advocating wilful shipping of gasoline jerrycans in light aircraft. Whilst I would be unconcerned about pressure for the reasons set out above, the increased fire risk in the event of crash would have to be considered and mitigated for. The legality of such carriage would also have to be confirmed - hence Sam's question.