Llanbedr Airfield

[Phil Space]

Can Phil Space enlighten me (us) about Swansea. Last time we visited we couldn't even get a cup of tea. It was closed in all respects other than the collection landing fees. A great shame as there have been times in the past when it was friendly, welcoming and had a good food service. With Cardiff no longer GA friendly perhaps there is a strong case for Llanbedt to reopen.

I was last in Swansea in mid May when the cafe was thriving and the place was active for a Friday. I'm checking with a friend to see what the latest status is.

I'm not being negative about the Kemble plan for Llanbedr just realistic.

Swansea has had it's ups and downs including a brief uplift when scheduled services ran from there a couple of years ago. However it has always just about scraped by mainly due to it's location on Fairwood Common which prevents any other sort of development.

Going west there is Pembrey and Haverfordwest which are quite little fields that are far removed from the success of Kemble. West Wales is not highly populated with wealthy people who work in London. Between Caernarfon and Haverfordwest you have some of the least populated parts of Wales.

Think of Shobden but with less people and you have Llanbedr.

If a flying school or GA centre cannot work at Cardiff with a local population of millions I find it hard to understand how it can work with a local population of just a few thousand.

Pobjoy wrote

The fine chaps at Kemble know all about the workings of "local authorities".
They have only just seen off their own local planning nerds in yet another gross waste of public time and money.
These "authorities" happily play judge and jury with "our" money yet provide no real input into providing real jobs "other than their own".

Wales is a different country with its own language and politics which are intertwined. East Anglia would be a better bet and with improved weather.

[POBJOY]

Why Llanbedr

Hyperborean knows why llanbedr is a great location,it is because it is ideally situated to access the splendor of North Wales and Snowdonia.
Whilst i have had many happy hours over the "flat lands of the east" it does not compare to the mountains,rivers, lakes, harbours,and beaches of North Wales, and Llanbedr has a train and bus service that can take you into the heart of the area a few minutes after landing.
Why waste your precious money going somewhere for a cup of tea when you can use the flight to get you to some really spectacular scenery.
You may need to plan your journey to go around the mountains at times, but at least you will be going somewhere that is well worth the visit.With a main line train service,bus links, and the nearby world famous narrow guage railway from Portmadoc it is a realistic visit that can avoid using a car.
I live in the West Country,so appreciate why we attract many visitors,but Snowdonia has the added advantage of its mountains and some of the least spoilt areas in the UK.
The locals want the airfield to reopen,so in my book that says it all.
Pobjoy

[Sir George Cayley]

Can I suggest that until we hear from the person who signed the contract and paid the money to buy Llanbedr, we're all just exercising our jaws (or fingers)

I don't care what aviation activity is planned, I'm just happy to think warm thoughts towards those with the courage to try.

Yes, some accommodation for visiting pilots would be great; West Wales has a secret micro climate that is never mentioned - so don't tell everyone.

Maybe, someone with loadsa money and fast ex-mil jets want's somewhere to play. Fine by me so long as when I get round to checking a backlog of lottery tickets they might let me play

Sir George Cayley

[Hen Ddraig]

When Llanbedr was transferred from the MOD to the WGA among the conditions were that the site must be maintained as an airfield and that it should not be used for housing.

There are some potential users based at Valley, 19(R) and 208(R) squadrons, they currently fly circuits at Valley, Mona and Hawarden I'm sure they would be only to pleased to have access to Llanbedr.


Time to spare, go by air

Hen Ddraig

[Phil Space]

I don't think it has helped Kemble to achieve their objectives by snubbing the Snowdonia Society.
They issued the following statement following the refusal.

"We are very pleased to have confirmation that the law does not allow developers to ride roughshod over a precious National Park, in this case by creating a civil airport within it. Planning officers at the Snowdonia National Park Authority have completed a highly professional analysis of Kemble's application before coming to that view. We are indebted to our expert legal team who worked for us without charge in the public interest and helped bring about this result.

We urged Kemble more than a year ago to make an application for planning permission. They would then have had to come clean about their intentions for the Llanbedr site, and those intentions could have been properly scrutinised. Instead they tried unsuccessfully to by-pass the normal planning regime.

Cymdeithas Eryri wants to see more and better jobs in the area; jobs with good prospects and not in conflict with the purposes of National Parks. To pave the way for that we would be happy to have discussions with any developers who think they can provide such jobs on the Llanbedr site. That offer is of course open to Kemble, but up to now they have refused to meet us."

The suspicion appears that Kemble plan something more than a few weekend GA visitors who will never provide enough income for such an operation.

[Johnm]

I think you'll find that sadly no-one has any plans for Llanbedr, least of all the Snowdonia Society who seem to want to pickle it in aspic and forget its industrial past and aren't greatly worried about the future.

I'm no ancient but I am old enough to remember travelling around the area with my father who was doing a roaring trade selling steel wire rope for huge excavators in vast quarries in the National Park, quite a few of them thar hills ain't made by nature

Most of the roofs in Northern England came from Snowdonia! Why do you think there's a port at Madoc and railway leading to it?

[airborne_artist]

Why do you think there's a port at Madoc and railway leading to it?

To entertain the tourists?

[POBJOY]

Llanbedr The Facts

Phil Space, you really should check the facts before sounding off about what the Kemble people should have done re their attempt to run llanbedr Airfield.
Point one, is the Snowdonia Society are not an elected body that represent the locals. They are a minority group that whilst in the main only have the interests of Snowdonia as their cause, they however have (certain parties) involved who are persuing their own agenda against the use of llanbedr.
If you speak to the real locals around llanbedr "the ones who have lived there for some time,and speak Welsh" a different picture emerges.

Point two is the situation regarding the " legal advice " sought by the local planning authority in respect of the requirements for the use of llanbedr as an airfield.
It appears that they were advised by the same "advisor" as Cotswold Council;s ill fated attempt to restrict operations at Kemble.
The big question is what was the coincidence that led the SNPA to choose the legal advice they had (answers on a post please)

When i spoke to planners at the SNPA they did not know that their advisor had advised Cotswold,and that the case prooved an expensive disaster for that authority.
As llanbedr has never been abandoned in planning terms,and was offered for sale by the government as an airfield,there is considerable doubt that planning is required for "airfield use".
"Change of use" would be required for use of surplus buildings for light industry,but no one has a problem with that,and the jobs created would be very welcome in the area.
It is no wonder that GA has such a struggle to exist at all, when the people who should be supporting the provision of facilities seem hell bent on pouring scorn on a proven company that is trying to do something.
The Snowdonia Society quote just shows the arrogance that these people have to set themselves "unelected as they are" to (advise) the elected body that actually has the responsibility to deal with this matter.Speak to the locals and deal with reality.
AS i said before WHO was the link for the legal advice!!!
Pobjoy

[Phil Space]

As I understand it there is no opposition to a proper planning application for both the airfield and buildings at Llanbedr.Although it is recognised that the bulk of the use of the site will be light industrial/storage there is general support for the GA airfield. However Kemble submitted 27 applications for certificates of lawfulness to continue using the site without further planning applications and the conditions that would go with them. Their purchase hinges on obtaining the relevent permissions to enable civilian use.

From my past experience as both someone who is from North Wales and a pilot with a history of GA flying in the area going back to the early 80's I can tell you that Llanbedr was never an airfield as such but an R and D establishment with runways used in conjunction with Aberporth. It was operated by the RAE and not the RAF prior to QuientiQ. I t was the only airfield in Wales including military and RAF Aberporth that would never allow civilian aircraft to visit.

It appears all that Kemble have to do is to submit a proper planning application for both the runways and the buildings as one unit.
That appears to be the most obvious route to success and the opening to the airfield to GA traffic.

See http://www.eryri-npa.co.uk/authority...gor_Advice.pdf

[Ni Thomas]

Phil Space Said,
Quote
"I t was the only airfield in Wales including military and RAF Aberporth that would never allow civilian aircraft to visit." Unquote

I beg to differ - In 1987 I was offered the chance to land and park there for a weekend - Unfortunately the weather said "No" and I missed the opportunity.

[Hyperborean]

Quite. Phil Space is wrong on several counts. Llanbedr had other uses before, and during its RAE ownership. Notably it was the base for target towing for the ranges at Tonfanau. Also there were civilian aircraft permitted to land there whilst I was an ATCO Cadet there in the early 70's. I even got a trip in one, a dove, Llanbedr-Liverpool-Hawarden and back. it was also proposed to use it as a dispersal for the V-force but wiser counsel prevailed in view of the weather record. The main problem with civilian use was the need to sterilise the runway for long periods when certain trials took place.

[Johnm]

The less said the better about the advice to Cotswold and North Wilts DC.

However I think it's fairly obvious that Kemble submitted the requests for certificates of lawful use to establish what uses were lawful!

If the answer is "none of the above" then I'd guess it's questionable whether the palaver of a planning application, or worse still several of them, is really worth the candle.

[POBJOY]

Llanbedr History

Phil Space continues to post comments that do not compliment the historic FACTS. LLANBEDR was built during the war as an AIRFIELD.During its time as an airfield it has also been used for drone.s,but this was in addition to other fixed wing and rotary movements.
For many years i had an agreement with the RAE to use the airfield in order to visit my parents in Portmadoc.
The whole planning issue is an attempt by the Snowdonia Society (the only objector)to prevent Kemble operating llanbedr as a GA airfield.
They have managed to encourage the Snowdon National park Authority (via the Welsh assembly) to seek use certificates (in order they can be refused).
The Snowdonia Society are not the same people as the "real locals" that actually want llanbedr to be open.
Please wake up to the fact that this unelected body is the only objector to llanbedr being used,and has as its cheif ex an ex Welsh Assembly minister (labour) who lost his seat at the last election.
The lobbying of many parties (under the auspicies of the society) has been a feature of the llanbedr episode,and all from this minority pressure group (and charity).
As stated before, speak to the locals to find out what they really want in thier back yard,i think you will find it is a GA airfield,that will brings jobs and business to the area.
As a planning unit llanbedr has always been an airfield,it was never abandoned,and therefore has an unbroken planning history.Kemble do not need planning for its continued use for aviation, military or civil.
Pobjoy

[Phil Space]

I am 100% in support of the re-opening of Llanbedr as an airfield but Pobjoy and others do not appear to understand planning law or the conditions of sale relating to the site.

POBJOY

Kemble do not need planning for its continued use for aviation, military or civil.

If Kemble do not need permission then why the recent application?

Sir George Cayley

Can I suggest that until we hear from the person who signed the contract and paid the money to buy Llanbedr, we're all just exercising our jaws (or fingers)

The lease will be for a 125 year term at a lease premium of £887,500 plus VAT
If you check the conditions of sale to Kemble you'll see they have to obtain all planning permissions/certificates of use etc for the sale to proceed.They have yet to commit to the sale.

POBJOY

As a planning unit llanbedr has always been an airfield,it was never abandoned,and therefore has an unbroken planning history.

It does not have an unbroken history. No flying has occurred there since 2004 and it needs a 10 year period for a certificate of lawful use.

I still disagree that the primary purpose of Llanbedr was an airfield. It was a launch site for drones. However even if we accept that the site was an airfield then change of use planning permission will still be required to use the buildings on site for non aviation purpose ie industry or storage.

POBJOY

The whole planning issue is an attempt by the Snowdonia Society (the only objector)to prevent Kemble operating llanbedr as a GA airfield.

I have no connection with anyone involved but it would have made sense for Kemble to have talked to The Snowdonia Society who state on their website they welcome a proper planning application.

As I see it if Kemble want to proceed with the purchase of the 125 year lease which remains unsigned then they will have to submit a planning application (for change of use to GA airfield and storage/light industry). Any permission will most likely have conditions relating to the non aviation use and airfield operation.

The company have kept very tight lipped on the whole episode but I suspect their approach for lawful use certification was persued as the cheaper option rather than a full scale planning application which would reveal all their intentions for the site.

The Welsh Assembly Government has said that

Kemble’s proposals are to re-open the Airfield, initially as an unlicensed airfield to accommodate private flying and UAS, and to let the many buildings on the site for business use

It is worth noting the reference there to UAS.(Drones)
BBC News - Forces considering drone aircraft

Details of the sale/lease are no secret and are on the Welsh Assembly website
(link at the bottom of the page)

The proposed disposal of Llanbedr Airfield to Kemble Air Services Limited (“Kemble”) will be by way of an Agreement for Lease making the grant of the lease conditional upon Kemble first obtaining from the local planning authority all planning permissions, certificates and consents authorising the use permitted by the lease. The lease will be for a 125 year term at a lease premium of £887,500 plus VAT. It should be noted that Kemble will form a new company, Llanbedr Airfield Estates LLP which will be named as the leaseholder and will operate the Airfield.

In reaching his decision, the Deputy First Minister has considered all the relevant facts and issues, in particular, his duty under Section 11A of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 and has taken account of all the representations made to him.

Following the decision by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to close Llanbedr Airfield in 2004 with the loss of 130 jobs, the WDA, in partnership with Gwynedd Council, commissioned from KPMG a study to identify options to reduce the economic impact of the closure. The KPMG study recommended a continuation of the existing aeronautical and employment-based use of the site.

The WDA purchased the site from the MoD in March 2006, and the Welsh Ministers became freeholders of the site in April 2006. In 2007, Stuart Hogg Property Consultants, an independent commercial property agent, was appointed by the Assembly Government with a view to identifying an airfield operator that could secure the continuation of the aeronautical and employment-based use of the site.

The site was marketed on a long leasehold basis with a particular emphasis on enhancing the local economy. Among other requirements, the Airfield use was to be continued and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles would be accommodated. The marketing was extensive and included advertisements in newspapers and journals. 170 enquiries were received and seven parties viewed the site.

Five bids/expressions of interest were received and, after evaluation, two were short-listed. The two short-listed bidders were invited to expand on their proposals and were visited at their existing operations by Officials of the Welsh Assembly Government. The result of this further evaluation was that Kemble Air Services Limited (“Kemble”) was selected as the preferred bidder to acquire the Airfield on a 125 year lease. Kemble’s proposals are to re-open the Airfield, initially as an unlicensed airfield to accommodate private flying and UAS, and to let the many buildings on the site for business use, thus providing local employment opportunities. A number of businesses have already expressed interest in occupying premises.

Welsh Assembly Government | Proposed Disposal of Llanbedr Airfield, Gwynedd ...

[POBJOY]

Llanbedr (planning law)

Here we go again.It is Phil Space who does not understand either planning law,or what is happening up near Harlech.
Llanbedr has always been an airfield. (not a gunnery range or strip supporting an army camp).
Its period of "lack of use" does not constitute abandonment any more than a woolworth site awaiting a new user.
Kemble are not asking for permissions or need to.
They only asked for a "use certificate" because after lobbying by a certain society the Welsh assembly changed the goalposts (after the lease deal was offered)
Do i need to tell you what the connection is between the Welsh Assembly and the society. (if so check your facts before posting comments)
Just wake up to the fact that this society (the only objector) has an office just down the road from the local planning authority, it has become a lobbying tool for certain people,and in no way has a mandate from the local population.
In planning terms a planning unit has a "use",Llanbedr was created from a somewhat wet area of land into an airfield in the war.Its change of use was back then.Since that time it has never been anything else,or has any attempt been made to remove it so as to make it "unusable as an airfield".
There are dozens of current airfields that were created in this way,as opposed to the few civil airports that were upgraded and had runways added.
The type of flying and aircraft used are of no concern to a planning authority,as they only have responsibility for the "land use".
(some authorities still have to be reminded of this at times)
And finally, when llanbedr was run under the auspices of the RAE i had an ongoing agreement to use the place as required in a light twin.
I would suggest that letters to the SNPA reminding them of the facts of this location would do more good than posting comments here.
Pobjoy

[Phil Space]

I've left a few days for informed comment but it appears apart from a few on here who are armchair planners there is little more to this thread than the fact that Kemble have the choice of getting planning permission or walking away

[Flyingplanner]

Wrong again Phil! How about appealing against the refusal of the lawful development certificate?

[Phil Space]

They certainly can if they want to waste time and money.

What are they going to argue? That they can use ex RAE buildings for commercial storage/civilian office/other. I don't think so and trying to sort the planning out will be a nightmare.

However the value of Llanbedr is not the airstrip but the buildings.

Unless they have plans for another RAE drone site then they will have to submit an application.

I speak as a developer of 30 years plus experience.

I'm 100% for this site moving forward with an airstrip but I can tell you there is no way an English company will ride roughshod over Welsh politics.

Kemble will have to play the game. This is not England and the Kemble planning scenario.

As for Pobjoy and Sir George Cayley..don't waste your planning expertise here...Upfield Farm needs you

[vee-tail-1]

Phil Space
There seems to be a puzzling and barely hidden hostility lurking under your expressed support for Llanbedr.
Perhaps my 30 years of living in West Wales where there is no Welsh English antagonism has affected my views of Welsh affairs. What does it matter if the Llanbedr developers are Welsh, English, French, Polish, whatever? (even I would draw the line at Muslims!) Perhaps as a developer you might want to be involved yourself?

[Phil Space]

Very funny...I'm on the other side of the world and if I wanted to get involved in UK airstrips East Anglia is full of them with much better commercial potential and better weather and roads than Llanbedr.

I guess you fly from Haverfordwest which was a favourite of mine 30 years ago.
But there is no market for airstrips in Pembrokeshire as GA units.

I can remember using Templeton..is it still going. Pembrey has had a more chequered past recently.

If you are interested there is a nice big hangar at Foulsham up for grabs

I am just making simple planning points and say again that if Kemble are serious
they had better get some decent advice and get stuck in.

We are all bound by the same planning laws and however we feel it is a fair system