JAA standard in USA?
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Bahn Jeuax - Remember that flying clubs in the UK have a vested interest in making statements like that, they would rather see you spending 7-8000 with them rather than 4-5000 in the US. Even with 4 hours 'settling in time' you are going to save money compared to if you did it all in the UK.
As I said previously no matter who you train under Uk, US or Timbuctoo you will get a wide range of flying abilities. There is the infamous story in the US about the two captains from the UK who took a 172 into a huge meteor crater.....and then couldnt get it out again!!! DOH!
Julian.
As I said previously no matter who you train under Uk, US or Timbuctoo you will get a wide range of flying abilities. There is the infamous story in the US about the two captains from the UK who took a 172 into a huge meteor crater.....and then couldnt get it out again!!! DOH!
Julian.
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......And what about the airline captain and his mate who wanted to take an Archer III, at max UUW into Big Bear in the summer heat.......Hmm (about 9000' DA), luckily the "substandard" US instructor told them to bog off, or go at 3am......
Training is the same the world over. Some places are crap, others are good. I learned in the US, and have no problem flying there. I had an hours conversion at Bournemouth and had no problems there. In fact I have flown the length and breadth of the UK and have had no problems. I have flown to some wicked places in the states, small mountain airports, airports in valleys where you can camp under the wing, restaraunts with their own runways, islands, deserts, vegas, blah blah.......Now think of it the other way, if you learned at some small grass strip in the UK and fancy a flying holiday in the USA, how much of a checkout would you feel comfortable with if you were planning a flight into a small mountain airfield? I did this on my PPL, admittedly I wasn't trying to do it min hours (63 was final tally), but it only cost me about $5000 total for a JAA PPL....(my 1st solo X/C was to Palm Springs)
I like flying in the UK but love the freedom you get in the US....
Swings and roundabouts.....
(J - Get your ticket booked)
Training is the same the world over. Some places are crap, others are good. I learned in the US, and have no problem flying there. I had an hours conversion at Bournemouth and had no problems there. In fact I have flown the length and breadth of the UK and have had no problems. I have flown to some wicked places in the states, small mountain airports, airports in valleys where you can camp under the wing, restaraunts with their own runways, islands, deserts, vegas, blah blah.......Now think of it the other way, if you learned at some small grass strip in the UK and fancy a flying holiday in the USA, how much of a checkout would you feel comfortable with if you were planning a flight into a small mountain airfield? I did this on my PPL, admittedly I wasn't trying to do it min hours (63 was final tally), but it only cost me about $5000 total for a JAA PPL....(my 1st solo X/C was to Palm Springs)
I like flying in the UK but love the freedom you get in the US....
Swings and roundabouts.....
(J - Get your ticket booked)
Intelligent Idiot
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Just how long did your stay in USA last EnglishAl.
Even if I went down that road, I couldnt spare any more than 3 weeks so I suppose that too has a bearing on my decision.
Even if I went down that road, I couldnt spare any more than 3 weeks so I suppose that too has a bearing on my decision.
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Bahn-Jeaux,
As has been mentioned before, the timing of your trip (should you opt to go that way) is important.
I went out to Florida at the beginning April for a three week package. I actually booked 4 weeks off work (I carried leave over from the previous year) just in case I was struggling, or the weather turned pants.
The weather was great and I didn't lose a single hour let alone a day, which allowed me to go from 0 hours to GFT pass in 14 days. That was ten years ago and in hindsight I wouldn't have done it any other way.
There are numerous arguements abound regarding where you learn and how you learn, I did what was right for me, and that is what counts.
PD
As has been mentioned before, the timing of your trip (should you opt to go that way) is important.
I went out to Florida at the beginning April for a three week package. I actually booked 4 weeks off work (I carried leave over from the previous year) just in case I was struggling, or the weather turned pants.
The weather was great and I didn't lose a single hour let alone a day, which allowed me to go from 0 hours to GFT pass in 14 days. That was ten years ago and in hindsight I wouldn't have done it any other way.
There are numerous arguements abound regarding where you learn and how you learn, I did what was right for me, and that is what counts.
PD
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I’m a newbie to this forum too and found this thread interesting. I’m British but live in San Diego (got hired by a local co while in the UK a few years ago, came out here to work and have been here since). I’ve always been interested in learning to fly but when I was in the UK was put off by the cost. Now that I live here I’ve decided to start learning. I was wondering once I get the FAA PPL whether it would be possible to rent and fly planes while in the UK on holiday and that lead me to this thread.
Looking at this topic it seems like if you qualify in the US conversion to a European license is difficult from what I read. However, like many are saying it seems to me that lot of this is to do with economics. I found Noggin’s comments interesting. I’m sure there are good and not so good pilots everywhere but I’m sure it is in the interest of the local flying schools to put out such stories as it may persuade more people to take the course locally. Needing 10 hours to learn how to use the radio?
I’m flying by getting membership at a local club. It costs around $50 for a 152 and $70 for a 172 and between $25 - $40 for a good instructor. Also right now I guess the US$ is weak against the European currencies. For those who are planning to come don’t forget that there is a new security clearance requirement for foreign nationals following sep 11. If you are going to a flying school that have a lot of foreign students they will tell you about it. I know there is an anglo-american flight school in El Cajon (Gillespie) that receives many students from the UK.
Looking at this topic it seems like if you qualify in the US conversion to a European license is difficult from what I read. However, like many are saying it seems to me that lot of this is to do with economics. I found Noggin’s comments interesting. I’m sure there are good and not so good pilots everywhere but I’m sure it is in the interest of the local flying schools to put out such stories as it may persuade more people to take the course locally. Needing 10 hours to learn how to use the radio?
I’m flying by getting membership at a local club. It costs around $50 for a 152 and $70 for a 172 and between $25 - $40 for a good instructor. Also right now I guess the US$ is weak against the European currencies. For those who are planning to come don’t forget that there is a new security clearance requirement for foreign nationals following sep 11. If you are going to a flying school that have a lot of foreign students they will tell you about it. I know there is an anglo-american flight school in El Cajon (Gillespie) that receives many students from the UK.
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Englishal is completely right. The only problem with training in the US is that it spoils you as to how GA flying should be.
The landing fees, general pettiness, golf club mentality and of course the much higher cost of flying in the UK, soon test your determination to keep flying.
Mind you the £1,000s of pounds you saved on your PPL may keep you in smug grins for a while.
To add one thing, your PPL can be done in 3 weeks (weather permitting) if you're prepared to work very hard. A lot of people suggest doing the exams before you go, and while this will help, it will also significantly add to the overall cost. And for most people, that's the main reason for training in the States.
The landing fees, general pettiness, golf club mentality and of course the much higher cost of flying in the UK, soon test your determination to keep flying.
Mind you the £1,000s of pounds you saved on your PPL may keep you in smug grins for a while.
To add one thing, your PPL can be done in 3 weeks (weather permitting) if you're prepared to work very hard. A lot of people suggest doing the exams before you go, and while this will help, it will also significantly add to the overall cost. And for most people, that's the main reason for training in the States.
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Go to the USA and have a great time - a JAA PPL IS doable in three weeks (maybe slightly more of a challenge now with the increased hours than it was 10 years ago, but still possible). Don't go if you want a holiday though - its not. Be prepared to work hard for three weeks - I was airborne at 7AM some mornings, finished flying at 7PM some days, busiest day I flew 5 hours with lesson briefings in between. But we did all the flying in two weeks, leaving the last week to tidy up on some of the exams and take it a little easier.
Some will say you can't take it all in when its intensive - believe me, you take far more in than you do if you have a one hour lesson and then can't fly again for three weeks due to the weather. One of the reasons many folk take far more hours here is the "three steps forward two steps back" syndrome. You forget things whilst you wait for a good weather day. Or some clubs/schools say "oh, you haven't done any [say] stalling for three months so you need to do some more" even though you've done that part of the sylabus. Or "oh, you need to go do some circuits because you haven't flown for four weeks because of the weather". So end up doing extra things at extra cost.
Radio is different in the US, you do need to know about US air law and airspace. But "coming back" just qualified isn't all that bad - a couple of hours dual airspace/RT/joining/etc. familiarisation in the UK should set up most people just fine.
I did the US (still going strong 10 years later), many others have. I would recommend it to anyone who could make space in their diary and have the budget to spend over a short period. No way would I learn to fly the once-a-week way.
Andy
Some will say you can't take it all in when its intensive - believe me, you take far more in than you do if you have a one hour lesson and then can't fly again for three weeks due to the weather. One of the reasons many folk take far more hours here is the "three steps forward two steps back" syndrome. You forget things whilst you wait for a good weather day. Or some clubs/schools say "oh, you haven't done any [say] stalling for three months so you need to do some more" even though you've done that part of the sylabus. Or "oh, you need to go do some circuits because you haven't flown for four weeks because of the weather". So end up doing extra things at extra cost.
Radio is different in the US, you do need to know about US air law and airspace. But "coming back" just qualified isn't all that bad - a couple of hours dual airspace/RT/joining/etc. familiarisation in the UK should set up most people just fine.
I did the US (still going strong 10 years later), many others have. I would recommend it to anyone who could make space in their diary and have the budget to spend over a short period. No way would I learn to fly the once-a-week way.
Andy
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Seems to me that there are two distinct issues here:[list=1][*]Whether it's possible to reach a safe standard in 3 weeks[*]The standard of training in the US[/list=1]On the first point, I think it's important to realise that this is a very tight timescale, and will be hard work. I did my CPL in 3 weeks - that's a little over half the number of hours of the PPL, and I already had a reasonable amount of experience beforehand. Although I wouldn't say I struggled with the timescale, I wouldn't have been able to fly very many more hours in that timescale without suffering from an information overload and not taking on board everything I could have done. Whether you will be able to pass comfortably in this time will depend very much on your own abilities to absorb information under pressure. Plenty of people manage it, so it is obviously quite possible.
On the second point, the answer, basically, is that it depends where you go. There are some very good schools in the US (some of the best instruction I've ever receieved was in the US) and some very bad ones. Likewise, there are some very good schools in the UK, and some very bad ones.
However, even if you go to the best school in the US, and you are the fastest learner they've ever taught, it will still take a little while to get used to the differences in the UK. The main things which will take a little time are slightly different radio procedures, a different way of organising airspace, the differences in the culture of flying such as having to get prior permission before visiting another airfield and paying landing fees when you arrive (all minor things, but unnerving for someone with low hours). And the biggie - the weather in the UK is absolutely nothing like the weather in Florida or California.
I think that 10 hours, as some people have suggested, is a very long time to get used to flying in the UK unless the instruction given was particularly bad, but a couple of hours should be expected. I know that I needed a couple of hours to get used to the US way of doing things when I went over to America to do some flying shortly after I got my license in the UK.
One other point which someone mentioned was that the examiners at these schools often work for the school in question, and they therefore have a vested interest in passing people to make the school's statistics look better. I've experienced this first-hand where a school (coincidentally in the US, but not a JAR school) pretty much guaranteed me a rating for a set price. If I'd failed the test, they'd have had to offer me more training and a re-test - and since it was a fixed price, this would have cost them money. Come the day of the test, I was not really ready, and messed up one thing in particular. The examiner gave me another go, and with a bit of help from him I managed to get it almost right second time round, and he passed me. I'm very pleased that I didn't intend to actually use the rating (it was a sea-plane rating) - if I'd been planning on flying sea-planes I'd have certainly required more training before considering myself safe. I can't say that JAR schools do or do not operate in a similar way, and I'm sure that no examiner would ever pass someone who he considers completely unsafe.
FFF
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On the second point, the answer, basically, is that it depends where you go. There are some very good schools in the US (some of the best instruction I've ever receieved was in the US) and some very bad ones. Likewise, there are some very good schools in the UK, and some very bad ones.
However, even if you go to the best school in the US, and you are the fastest learner they've ever taught, it will still take a little while to get used to the differences in the UK. The main things which will take a little time are slightly different radio procedures, a different way of organising airspace, the differences in the culture of flying such as having to get prior permission before visiting another airfield and paying landing fees when you arrive (all minor things, but unnerving for someone with low hours). And the biggie - the weather in the UK is absolutely nothing like the weather in Florida or California.
I think that 10 hours, as some people have suggested, is a very long time to get used to flying in the UK unless the instruction given was particularly bad, but a couple of hours should be expected. I know that I needed a couple of hours to get used to the US way of doing things when I went over to America to do some flying shortly after I got my license in the UK.
One other point which someone mentioned was that the examiners at these schools often work for the school in question, and they therefore have a vested interest in passing people to make the school's statistics look better. I've experienced this first-hand where a school (coincidentally in the US, but not a JAR school) pretty much guaranteed me a rating for a set price. If I'd failed the test, they'd have had to offer me more training and a re-test - and since it was a fixed price, this would have cost them money. Come the day of the test, I was not really ready, and messed up one thing in particular. The examiner gave me another go, and with a bit of help from him I managed to get it almost right second time round, and he passed me. I'm very pleased that I didn't intend to actually use the rating (it was a sea-plane rating) - if I'd been planning on flying sea-planes I'd have certainly required more training before considering myself safe. I can't say that JAR schools do or do not operate in a similar way, and I'm sure that no examiner would ever pass someone who he considers completely unsafe.
FFF
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I'm reading this thread because someday I may convert my US certificates to UK certificates. But I'm always seeing the phrase "JAA Standard training'. Is this a dig at the FAA 'sub-standard training'? Or just a new British term?
Maybe I should tell all the passengers on my jet that I have sub-standard FAA training and maybe they shouldn't be taking their lives in their hands on an aircraft with a sub-standard FAA Captain?
I have one obversation:
When I was a flight instructor, about a million years ago, in Las Vegas. We'd get Brit pilots comming over and renting Cessnas to toodle around the area. Many of the Brits were pretty bad sticks. Couldn't recognize an engine failure on takeoff in a light twin. Couldn't get out of a spin in a 152. (The spins were self induced because of failure to recover from a stall).
Sorry to be negative. Just reacting to the JAA Standard remark.
Be safe.
Maybe I should tell all the passengers on my jet that I have sub-standard FAA training and maybe they shouldn't be taking their lives in their hands on an aircraft with a sub-standard FAA Captain?
I have one obversation:
When I was a flight instructor, about a million years ago, in Las Vegas. We'd get Brit pilots comming over and renting Cessnas to toodle around the area. Many of the Brits were pretty bad sticks. Couldn't recognize an engine failure on takeoff in a light twin. Couldn't get out of a spin in a 152. (The spins were self induced because of failure to recover from a stall).
Sorry to be negative. Just reacting to the JAA Standard remark.
Be safe.
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But I'm always seeing the phrase "JAA Standard training'. Is this a dig at the FAA 'sub-standard training'? Or just a new British term?
Some folks who don't know better MIGHT regard FAA as "substandard" for European flying because you don't experience overhead joins, flight information services, etc, etc. But of course there are requirements in the US that do not arise in Europe too. JAA as compared to FAA is a slighty different sylabus, slightly different requirements (e.g. turns around a point not required for JAA, no actual spins required for JAA, etc).
Andy
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no actual spins required for JAA
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FFF,
Which bit of California were you flying in? I have flown in the same conditions over there as you get over here so which to say that you wont get same weather over there is a pretty general statement to make and one I do not agree with.
You get rain, fog, mist, marine layers, etc, anything you want (or dont want as the case may be!) and I even flown into a fully blown ski resort in CA where we had to play spot the runway!!!
Flyrr - Dont let them wind you up! Its like comparing apples and pears when comparing JAA and FAA. Some claim FAA is inferior as they have had bad experiences of schools in the US, but there again there are bad schools over here as well. I fly in both countries and my only gripe is the cost of training in the UK!
Julian.
Which bit of California were you flying in? I have flown in the same conditions over there as you get over here so which to say that you wont get same weather over there is a pretty general statement to make and one I do not agree with.
You get rain, fog, mist, marine layers, etc, anything you want (or dont want as the case may be!) and I even flown into a fully blown ski resort in CA where we had to play spot the runway!!!
Flyrr - Dont let them wind you up! Its like comparing apples and pears when comparing JAA and FAA. Some claim FAA is inferior as they have had bad experiences of schools in the US, but there again there are bad schools over here as well. I fly in both countries and my only gripe is the cost of training in the UK!
Julian.
Back in 96 to 98 I flew 42 hours on the RAF Vigilant (Grob 109) Motor Glider as a staff cadet. Then in Nov last year I went to Anglo-American in San Diego and got my JAA PPL in 46 hours. I can say that having had an RAF CFS Standardisation check and a JAA check ride the standards are as high as that. My instructors were all Brits and knew what they were doing.
Flying in the USA at a good school will open your eyes as to how GA should be. E.G. how does £50 an hour wet rate sound for a good PA28 161? No landing fees or approach fees unless it's LAX (Yes the 4 runway one in Los Angeles). Or £100 p/h wet for the duchess twin?
E.g. As I was also doing my night rating (no cost option) I flew up under the hood from Gillespie to Hawthorn field (2 miles from LAX) and shot an ILS in Class Bravo airspace, had dinner then flew back at night using VFR flight following (similar to RAS). Now the thing was, I only had 6 hours at the time. Can you really do that here in Blighty? Or the time I flew to Thermal near Palm Springs and was in circuit with Gulf Stream 5's
As for the "British is Best" attitude that still afflicts us, I think it will kill off affordable flight training here. I mean we don't even have pilot controlled runway lighting. If you turn up at a closed airfield at night you listen to the ATIS, AWOS or ASOS which even the smallest airfields have, tune into the local Common Traffic Advisory Frequency and self announce your intentions then key the mike 7 times quickly to turn on the lights yourself and land. It's all up to you.
Anyone who wants to do a PPL and can spare the time and is willing to work hard - sort the visa and book the flight to the USA. I want to live there full time!
Flying in the USA at a good school will open your eyes as to how GA should be. E.G. how does £50 an hour wet rate sound for a good PA28 161? No landing fees or approach fees unless it's LAX (Yes the 4 runway one in Los Angeles). Or £100 p/h wet for the duchess twin?
E.g. As I was also doing my night rating (no cost option) I flew up under the hood from Gillespie to Hawthorn field (2 miles from LAX) and shot an ILS in Class Bravo airspace, had dinner then flew back at night using VFR flight following (similar to RAS). Now the thing was, I only had 6 hours at the time. Can you really do that here in Blighty? Or the time I flew to Thermal near Palm Springs and was in circuit with Gulf Stream 5's
As for the "British is Best" attitude that still afflicts us, I think it will kill off affordable flight training here. I mean we don't even have pilot controlled runway lighting. If you turn up at a closed airfield at night you listen to the ATIS, AWOS or ASOS which even the smallest airfields have, tune into the local Common Traffic Advisory Frequency and self announce your intentions then key the mike 7 times quickly to turn on the lights yourself and land. It's all up to you.
Anyone who wants to do a PPL and can spare the time and is willing to work hard - sort the visa and book the flight to the USA. I want to live there full time!
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I have recently completed my JAA PPL in Florida, and did 25hrs extra hr building and 3 hrs extra in a warrior, and I have to say I had an absolute blast. I took 6 weeks off work ( whole years holiday saved up) and went over to do my PPL and 50 hrs extra time building. The key to it is BE FLEXIBLE, the 21 day PPL is do-able, but why put yourself in a tight situation?? most schools will advise you to take more time if you cam, and it took me 3 weeks and 6 days to do mine, which INCLUDED a night rating, all the ground exams and the R/T oral. Yes, the groundschool was hard work, but a bit of prior learning meant that I could concentate on the most difficult subjects ( met, nav and performance) to self learn while actually putting them into practice, so again it all comes down to being able to apply common sense and not try to do everything at once on a mega tight timescale. The instructor I had was superb, building up quickly but safely, and I was doing my own landings after 4 hrs 
, and gradually increased the pace by letting me do comms/ nav etc, and I felt it all fell into place nicely and sensibly. I solo'd after 12 hrs, and felt utterly safe doing so, which says a lot about the quality of instruction I recived.
If there is one thing I personally would reccomend you do, it is to ensure you do some real spins, not just talk about them, as it shows you just how fast things can get serious if you are flying at a poor AoA or not fying co-ordinated. The first entry will make you pie-eye'd, and it certainly makes you have an appreciation on why aircraft performance and airspeed is so critical , and practicing recoverys will give you a lot of confidence in your ability to safly handle the aircraft.
On the subject of Radios/ airspace etc, I am personally going to have a few more hours of instruction in the uk, as it is only sensible and to be honest its still hours in the log-book, and you never stop learning
, If you pick a good us school you have NOTHING to worry about, don't let the witch-hunters put you off, and remember you will have a scream as the USA loves its aviation If you want any help or advice drop me a PM and I will gladly answer any questions you have
, and gradually increased the pace by letting me do comms/ nav etc, and I felt it all fell into place nicely and sensibly. I solo'd after 12 hrs, and felt utterly safe doing so, which says a lot about the quality of instruction I recived. If there is one thing I personally would reccomend you do, it is to ensure you do some real spins, not just talk about them, as it shows you just how fast things can get serious if you are flying at a poor AoA or not fying co-ordinated. The first entry will make you pie-eye'd, and it certainly makes you have an appreciation on why aircraft performance and airspeed is so critical
, and practicing recoverys will give you a lot of confidence in your ability to safly handle the aircraft. On the subject of Radios/ airspace etc, I am personally going to have a few more hours of instruction in the uk, as it is only sensible and to be honest its still hours in the log-book, and you never stop learning
, If you pick a good us school you have NOTHING to worry about, don't let the witch-hunters put you off, and remember you will have a scream as the USA loves its aviation If you want any help or advice drop me a PM and I will gladly answer any questions you have
