Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
 

Well here goes transferring from F.O Wales blog to this page. So full power, wheels up, flap in by five, and 2850 plus 9. We are away. (maybe)

Will now try and transfer my blog from F.O Wales to this page.

Plenty on here will be very interested Cliff.:ok: Yesterday 11:30 cliffnemo F.o Wales
Herewith garbled version of my efforts to obtain my wings during the 39/45 war.

numerous visits to recruiting office with hundreds of other hopeful future spitfire pilots. Finally accepted for consideration.(Didn't finish up on Spits)

Three days at R.A.F Padgate for exams including maths, geometry. etc. Tests for colour blindness . Tunnel vision, night vision ,physical fitness etc.etc.

A few weeks later accepted as pilot U/T to be informed tbat as i was in a reserved occupation the R.A.F would endevour to obtain my release from the ministry of labour. In the meanwhile to join the A.T.C to learn signals. basic navigation.
Six months later received letter I was now in the R.A.F VR on deferred service as an A.C 2 and given a silver V.R lapel badge.
Three months later instructed to report to Lords cricket ground where I remained in a "luxury flat" for a month .classes in maths, basic navigation . aircraft recognition, drill, P.T. swimming and life saving plus ?

Six months at Torquay I.T.W previous subjects plus morse- radio and aldis- ,navigation, dinghy practice in the harbour, five mile cross country runs. clay pidgeon and deflection shooting, armanents (strip our machine guns in the dark and name all parts) engines, aerodynamics. hydraulics. Classes held in any vacant premises, miles apart, uphill and downhill at 140 paces to the minute, and arms up to shoulder level Passed out L.A.C

One month at Marshalls flying school,had to solo on tiger moth in under ten hours to qualify for further pilot training. Passed and posted to R.A.F Heaton Park A.C.D.C for one month ,with usual training subjects

PHEW. wonder if any one is interested, it's hard going.
This is my first attempt at this sort of thing and I may be flogging a dead horse so will submit this to see what happens. If there is interest, I will try to describe my career via Nova Scotia, Oklahoma. Gulf of Mexico and finally to 150 Sqdn Hemswell. I might even tell the story of being retained on a court of enquiry pending court martial for low flying over a ladies college near Harrogate.
CLIFF.
NILS BASTARDO CARBORUNDUM so if some one will confirm that the system is working I will try to relate my progress from A.C 2 to Warrant officer, and after "cessation of hostilities" how I remustered as W.O/AC1 equipment assistant. Don't expect any tales of derring do, there weren't any. I was lucky.
Cliff

Excellent stuff Cliff :D
The thing works, I'm sure there's plenty of us who want to hear more!
That college for ladies? Not Queen Ethelburga's was it?

St Ethelbuga's Ladies
 

It certainly was, in a Tiger Moth. Luckily my oppo a Belgian pilot had signed as pilot for the trip and me as navigator . But more later. We had previously been billeted in the Majestic Hotel. and he had "met" one of the young ladies.
Cliff.
Cliff.

Fascinating, please tell us more Cliff!

KDY

Cheers Cliff, keep it up:ok:

You can't stop there Cliff - let's have the rest!

Would be fascinated to hear more about the solo in under 10 hrs and other similar criteria for continuing in trg - you might have thought that given the need for aircrews at the time things might have been relaxed a little more. Or was it the case that we need to get you through in 10 hrs because there are another bunch of trainees waiting to go through the system behind you and we don't want you clogging it up?

A real Cliff hanger !! Give us more.

Wonderful stuff, Cliff, and it looks as if you have a keen audience already. Keep going. Can we have more detail in future posts as so far you've covered about a year and a half of your life in just a few sentences? :ok:

Relaxed???, just before my final check ride at Marshals flying school, I was a "bag of nerves"(the reason why it was of monumental importance to me may be explained later)
. My instructor (an ex R.F.C pilot) said I should have a cigarette, I have been smoking ever since.Disgusting. No nothing was rushed or skimped. plenty of aspiring spitfire pilots to choose from. The Air Ministry obtained a lot of navigators, and bomb aimers from those who didn't solo, however many did volunteer for navigator or bomb aimer direct. Our main aim AT THAT TIME, was to stop our relatives being killed and our homes being wrecked The training system had improved radically by the time i joined. I hope to tell you about my friend who went to the recruiting office with me. He started training straight away. His training period must have been very short as he was K.I.A on beaufighters before I had finished I.T.W I have nothing but admiration for the education section. IT was PERFECT.

Will now try to find time to continue,when I hope most questions will be answered. starting with my safe journey through U boat alley to Halifax, Nova Scotia anD R.A.F Moncton.
Cliff.
Must be tea, coffee is three h'apence. (NAAFI)

Fantastic stuff Cliff, please, please, please keep it coming!! :D:D

Please keep it coming. I think we can learn a lot from history. Did you keep flying after the war, have met a couple of WWII pilots who never flew again after cessation of hostilities.

I have a friend who was a Halifax pilot, I asked him once, had he considerd a flying career after the war.
'Good God no old chap' he replied, 'far too dangerous'!

Flying After The War
 

No. Happy to be home with plenty of birds;backy, and beer.My best friend who trained with me in Ponca City decided to become a weekend R.A.F flyer after the war. On his first flight in a Harvard, he took off from St Athan ,his engine cut and he "landed" in the drink. Being well trained in "dingy dingy prepare for ditching " made a perfect "landing"., released his harness, inflated his Mae West and floated out as the Harvard sank. As he didn't like getting wet he decided to stay ashore.
Cliff.

Harrogate To Moncton New Brunswick
 

Before I start, if any one is expecting thrilling tales such as "there I was upside down, and nothing on the clock but the makers name" then this will not interest you . But if you are interested in what happened to me that's fine.

O.K so we have now arrived at Heaton Park plenty of classes and drill and P.T (now P.E). We are now getting somewhere, we can drill for fifteen minutes without a word of command and going through the complete drill book, also march for miles at 140 to the minute, the army marched at 120 with the exception of the Durham light infantry.

After a month we pack our worldly posessions into kit bag, side pack, and big pack, but minus, gas mask;gas cape, and gloves and take the train to Liverpool.
As we board the ship over the Tannoy we hear Frank Sinatra singing his latest song Nice and easy does it.
The captain then announces that he is ordered to maintain a minimum of twenty nine knots until we reach Halifax , so that Uboats can't catch us , and that if anyone falls overboard, all they can do is throw us a life belt( some comedian said "don't worry he will pick you up on the way back"). There were about eight thousand of us on board including German P.O.Ws, nurses, wounded Americans, and us. We were all allocated duties eight hours off, and four on, mine being to stand on the stern with a .303 S.M.L.E . I never found out why. The holds were scaffolded out to form bunks with about three feet (sorry we didn't have metres then) headroom, which were occupied night and day in shifts. We were really enjoying the cruise until we reached the Atlantic, when a storm blew up. Steaming at twenty nine knots into a gale was quite exciting, with the waves going over the bridge and even sailors being sea sick. I was later offered a commission in the fleet air arm but refused as I never wanted to go to sea again.

After four and half days we landed at Halifax and took the train to R.A.F Moncton, New Brunswick. More classes and drill. After a month we left for The Darr School of Aeronautics .Ponca City , Oklahoma.
Will describe the seven day train journey, and the flying training in my next contribution.
Sorry to be so long winded but, think I am bit annoyed that a certain gentleman received the coveted wings in four months, and forty hours flying. I had to do forty hours "under the hood on the Link trainer"
Cliff.

Top stuff Cliff. Keep it coming!:D

:ok::ok:
Quite humbling.

Cliff, more please.

A REPLY TO THE DOMINANT MALE
Only birds and fools fly, and birds don't fly at night (Confusius)

Well done
 

More please. J.F.B.

What did your worldly possessions consist of? What was the scran like? What was the accom like? Could you please describe it, even the nitty gritty. Did you at any point feel you would fail? Did anybody fail? What happened to them if they did?

So many things would like to ask. Please carry on:D

R.a.f Moncton New Brusnwick
 

At last we have a stable bed in comfortable wooden huts with the usual coke stoves. Unfortunately most of us "erks" are suffering from disentry. plenty of chalk and opium supplied by sick quarters, it is soon cured .It's summer and pleasant to be outside. We are all issued with Canadian pilot log books,and if memory serves me right, with Sidcot flying suit. silk inner suit. silk under gloves leather gauntlet gloves. leather flying helmet. goggles and those floppy suede flying boots which were superseded by escape boots, We were then told we would be shortly allocated to various E.F.T.Ss in Canada. or B.F.T.S (B for British)) in America.
Every one hopes to be posted to America. In the meantime we can get in or out of camp at any time, through "the hole in the fence" An enterprising Canadian runs a bus service to this hole, and we are always "informed" when the S.Ps occasionally visit. Life is good,
with food we haven't tasted for two years. No rationing here. Sweet caporal Canadian cigs reminding one of horse manure were cheap. (I use this expression as my sister may be logged in). I and a few others have been allocated to the Darr School of Aeronautics near Ponca City, Oklahoma,which is one of six American flying schools operated under lease lend. (more info on this or the previous Arnold scheme, if any one is interested)

After a month at Moncton we set off by train( Atcheson Topeka and Santa Fe) for Oklahoma. We were a bit surprised at the standard of the rolling stock, Buffalo BILL would have accepted it as normal. However we soon found out it was to be a pleasant journey. A coke stove at each end of the saloon, with each, two bench seats, facing each other making up a bed for two at night. A pull down bunk above our heads accommodated the the other two cadets. (When we got over the border we became kay- dets) We traveled by night and day for seven days, including a day off in Chicago while they oiled the engine, and only stopping for coal and water.

At our first stop for coal and water , the train which was the longest we had ever seen, pulled up at the platform, and we were amazed to see the platform covered in tables and chairs. the tables being laden with ice cream, oranges (unobtainable in the U.K) Coke. Lucky Strike cigs: etc. Very friendly ladies standing behind the tables. ready to serve us with anything we required free. Some thanked us for volunteering to fight Tojo and Hitler We departed to rousing cheers wondering what we had done to deserve it, This was repeated every time we stopped. Just wondering if any one who is complaining about being held up at Heathrow for eight hours is reading this.Five weeks have passed, and we have a week to go.

We travel down I THINK through Quebec, Montreal, Toronto. Detroit, Chicago and Oklahoma City. and finally Ponca city one week later (Mike of The 6 B.F.T.S association) if you have found this site as suggested, you may correct this if my memory has let me down.
I now have to recuperate, so will sign off for a while, but hope to move on next to spins . slow rolls, imelmans.circuits and bumps .

CLIFF.
According to the laws of aerodynamics it is impossible for a bumble bee to fly. Fortunately the bumble bee doesn't know any thing about aerodynamics, so carries on flying.

Reply To X213a
 

Hi. x213a,
I will certainly reply, but it will require some thinking about as my memory ain't what it used to be, will do a print out of your questions.More later. I have to light my pipe.
I,m enjoying this , but worried about white finger syndrome
Cliff

Reply To X213a
 

My answers to your questions.
1, Worldly possessions.? Not much. We were paid three shillings and sixpence per day equivalent to about three pints of beer and a packet of cigarettes Couldn't afford a watch or lighter. Might have been 4s6d ( four and sixpence), when I became and L.A.C.
I did own a tooth brush, razor. writing paper and stamps. /The rest was made up with issue items such as two pairs of under pants (they should have increased this number) two vests ,knife fork and spoon, two towels. one pair shoes one pair boots (airmen for the use off -stores nomenclature-) stainless steel clasp knife with tin opener It was an offense to be found in possession of a camera or radio and later on had to have permission to have a car or motorbike (they ran quite well on high octane fuel.)

2 accommodation varied about eight to a room at I.T.W Torquay but we did have two cotton sheets as standard aircrew issue (the army didn't) Later it was mainly nissan huts, with 2 coke stoves and no coke (joke)

3 FOOd In the U.K This varied from good to bloody awful but very little eggs and bacon, (except later when providing we got more than half way across the North sea we were guaranteed bacon and eggs for breakfast), a lot of stewed prunes .carrots, potatoes cheese on toast. semolina pudding. However when in the U.S of A the catering was top class.

3 Did you ever think you would fail. Yes all the time

.At the recruiting centre it would be impossible to count the number of would be spitfire pilots who were not accepted. Also quite a few were eliminated as they failed the solo under ten hours test at Cambridge.
Cant remember the number of pilot U/Ts who failed the exams at the I,T.W some did, but the records show that on my course no 15 at Ponca city out of one hundred and four Briish and seventeen American cadets twenty two were eliminated,but think there were more. While I was there two were killed Out of the total for the war out of1230 total 197 were eliminated. Any one who washed out, as we called it. returned to Canada, to train as navigator. or bomb aimer.Please note a lot of navigators and bomb aimers chose that duty. Later the classification of Pilot U/T was changed to P.N.B (PILOT NAVIGATOR BOMB AIMER)
CLIFF.
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be

Cliff, fascinating.

What were your instructors like? Were they experienced (operationally) or did they have first tour pilots fed back into the instructor stream. It is quite difficult these days to wash someone out of flying training (not necessarily a bad thing...don't want to throw out babies with the bath water!). Did your instructors generally want to be there, or would they have rather been at a front line squadron. (I know I am asking for you to speak on their behalf, and will understand if you cannot or don't wish to answer that).

You mentioned 40 hours under the bag. What was your total hours until gaining wings?

Great to hear of the reception you received at the train stations. Having been to the USA in uniform I am still amazed and amused about the way they still treat their uniformed members. I think the national pride in our own countries is probably equal, but the yanks are a lot more demonstrative in their appreciation.

Yes I realise I may take flak for the above comment, and I am speaking in vast generalisations. Note: Local conditions may vary.

TDM

Great stuff Cliff. You obviously couldn't afford the time to go skiing in Kloisters! :)

Reply To The D.m
 

REPLY TO YOUR QUESTIONS
The majority of the instructors were excellent pilots, but more importantly were excellent patient teachers, However they were American civilians . who I suspect were ex crop dusters, mail pilots with hundreds of hours behind them.Bear in mind this was an American camp under the lend lease agreement, with only a few R.A.F officers. The instructors seemed happy to be there, Who wouldn't 103 (F) in the shade, a swimming pool. fantastic food, a car with all the petrol (sorry gas) they required at a few cents a gallon, etc. despite the war.

Total hours to gain wings, 9.5 hours solo test on Tiger moth. 100hrs on P.T 17s (Boeing-Stearman biplane). 100 hours A.T 6 (Harvard to you), including a 2000 mile navigation test down to the Gulf of Mexico. Plus 40 hours on the link trainer "under the hood", which was possibly the first flight simulator. Plus many more Hours in classrooms,how many? who knows.
As for national pride ,I was extremely impressed. Every morning we paraded to hoist the stars and stripes and the union jack. An American would hoist old glory, the following day he would hoist the union jack ( flag sorry). One morning a British cadet was hoisting the stars and stripes but it was touching the floor, whereupon the American cadet shouted "get that flag of the deck Mr" The British cadet replied "you can take your flag and stuff it up your **** and then the stars to keep it there. The British cadet was given two hours to get out of the camp and sent back to the U.K You see no American can allow their flag to touch the ground.
CLIFF.

Skying In Kloisters.
 

Thought you said SKIVING at first. ('Nuff said) I was one of the lucky ones we managed to get fourteen days on return to the U.K after nearly a year after the last time home. Some were away for years or for ever.
Cliff.
P.S If any one cannot understand some of my ancient expressions or acronyms then just ask. Sorry still think imperial rather than metric I do know 2.54cm = 1" but it means nothing to me. Could read the thirty two points of the compass but the R.A.F changed to three sixty degrees mid war but retained knots. Could be tother way round, did they change the airspeed indicator from miles to knots? any one know? or care.

Found Another B.f.t.s Cadet
 

Amazing, Just had a private email via pprune from an ex B.F.T.S cadet named George. He trained at Miami, Oklahoma (not the miami)
He said he didn't want to "steel my thunder" I have asked him to contribute, he could help to rectify (diplomatically) some of my mistakes, my memory ain't what it used to be, and 60 odd years ago?

Just keep it coming Cliff and the more the better, you make RAF Ternhill and RAF Swinderby in the mid fifties seem very boring.

Photos
 

I have been trying to paste and copy my photos in photo bucket on to this site (Me as brand new sprog or erk at I.T.W complete with white starched flash in "hats field service", and white blanco'd webbing belt and V.R shoulder badges) with no success Can any one help this impecunious O.A.P (Violins on shoulders) ? Have had an email from another ex 6 B.F.T.S bod with excellent pic showing him with pathfinder Mosquito Would also like to attach it (providing there isn't a woman with a pram looking for him)
Think photos can be copied, as I have seen them on other pages.

Terra firma? yes the more firma the less terroor

harrym
 

Thanks for the memories Cliffnemo, I followed a roughly similar path. For the Atlantic crossing on the QM we were accompanied by Winston and most of his cabinet, plus assorted chiefs of staff en route to the (first) Quebec conference while other bigwigs on board included Guy Gibson and Orde Wingate.

At some point it was decided that we cadets should be inspected by the great man himself, so one day we all were lined up somewhat shambolically on the port promenade deck. Next to our flight/section or whatever was a group of French Air Force cadets that attracted Winnie's special attention. Stopping to question one of them, he enquired "how did you get over from France?", to be answered "on ze boat, M'siear". "Jolly good" said WC, "when was that?" "In 1938" was the response, result collapse of stout party.

Normally the Queens and other large liners sailed unescorted, so we were surprised to find a destroyer close by on the first morning with other vessels visible further away. However the weather was pretty rough and plainly it was having a hard time keeping up with our 30+ knot speed, eventually falling back out of sight; using our newly acquired morse skills, we divined from her signalling lamp that the sea state made station keeping impossible. For the rest of the crossing no escorts were visible until we came in sight of the Canadian coast.

Keep it coming!

Harry, I'm sure Cliff won't be offended if you give us more of your story too.

Anyone who'd like a Navigator's version of events (and training in Canada that closely parallels Cliff's experiences as shared with us to date) should look out for 'No Moon Tonight' by Don Charlwood. Probbly even a better read is 'Journeys into Darkness' by the same author, essentially the same story as 'No Moon Tonight', but written thirty years later, when he felt more free to say what really happened without worrying about certain people's reputations. Both books are available for as little as $1.00 at www.abebooks.com

Charlwood's crew were the first crew to complete a tour of 30 missions in their squadron (103 Sqn) in eleven months. Think about all that that implies. Until them, not a single crew from the squadron had survived 30 missions in almost a year.

repl to harrym
 

We didn't have a destroyer escort, but a Sunderland circled us until we were half way across the Atlantic, when a Catalina took over. We heard later the Queen Mary crossing at the same time as us, and in the same storm, had to go into dry dock in New York for repairs to plates. We also heard that on a later trip she had run over a destroyer (the Cuarasao ?) and didn't even stop.

Typed another contribution yesterday and saved it, the original disappeared and couldn't find the saved file After recuperation will try again. Am still trying to add photos using photo bucket but so far only managed to print on this page the URL characters and no piccy. Any one any ideas.
Cliff
P.S Thanks for the encouragement, that's what keeps me going.
If you can't stand a joke, you shouldn't have joined

Reply To Wily
 

<and training in Canada that closely parallels Cliff's experiences> See wily's above.

Parallel maybe.

but as grammatically correct no.

cliff: posting pics. Copy the img code from Photobucket.

Now open your reply window in Pprune and click on the "insert image" icon, it is the second to last one in the row.

This will open another window titled "Please enter the URL of your image", paste the Photbucket image code in here, but make sure you only have one http at the start. Also delete any [img] if you have copied those over.

Click OK, and your photo should appear

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...dleach/001.jpg
Am now experimenting . If successful a picture of me as a pilot/ut white flash: blanco'd belt, and V.R patches will appear.

To Henry Crun.
 

much appreciated henry. When I get to Ponca city, will be able to show pictures of PT17 , AT6s control tower etc.
Will reduce size.
Cliff.

Wiley's Suggestion
 

Yes hrym please help. it's hard going.
Cliff.

Pilot Training, WW2
 

Wiley - I would like to oblige, but memoirs of my pilot training in Canada run to over twenty pages of A4 (single-sided), far too lengthy for reproduction here. However, would be delighted to e-mail them to you; is there a way I could acquire your address without you having to publish it in this forum?