At last we have both of our contributors, Cliffnemo and Regle back on the line. This really is one of the best threads on the forum. Hearing what it was like from the horses mouth makes the events of that period come alive. It also brings home that it was not as described by Lennie Godber in Porridge "a quick dogfight and back in time for breakfast and medals".

Keep up the good work gents.

Thanks Cliffnemo for that shot of the Majestic, brought back many memories - such as when our flight, parading outside the main entrance, incurred an officer's displeasure for some reason or other and were ordered to double mark time on the spot while wearing gas masks - very good for the waist line!

Not depicted are the external fire escapes, much used late at night to avoid being penalised for late return. Following the discovery of a body lying beneath one with a broken neck, this mode of entry was strongly discouraged but needless to say such injunctions had little effect - we just took more care.

Keep it coming!

harrym

What comments ?
 

I am sorry but I have had a bad attack of sciatica and have not felt up to very much. It is a very small bit better today ... it is the first day that I have been able to put my right foot on the ground.
What do you think of the ditching in the Hudson ? My admiration is immense for the Captain and the whole crew, especially the Cabin crew who must have performed miracles in getting everybody out without injury.
I have always thought, when I read of similar "miracles" performed by the pilots in these cases , that each and every one of us who has been flying for a longish time must have had at least one, and very probably more than one , case where his actions have saved many, many lives but it has, rightly , gone unsung because it is our job. It is what we are payed such good salaries for and I would not have it otherwise.
It also makes me very proud of my profession.

Reg - very quick thoughts on the Hudson thing - quite amazing scenes there - but there were of course just as many similar acts when you blokes were doing the things you're relating in this thread, with far less recognition. But it was good to hear a 'good news' aviation story for once!

Cliffnemo - the different experiences in wartime depending on what time it was is certainly something I've seen a lot of while reading various people's accounts. Once the EATS was really up and running it was pumping out qualified aircrew in a highly efficient manner. It truly was one of the more remarkable organizational achievements of the war!

Union Jack + taxydual - thank you, that's one mystery solved.

Union Jack + taxydual - thank you, that's one mystery solved.

Cheers, Kookabat, I'll drink to that, and of course to Regle and Cliff!

Jack

Ditching.
 

Sorry Regle to hear about your sciatica, I know the feeling well. I hope you recover quickly..

Re ditching in the Hudson. I think it was fantastic, but then to go through the aircraft and search from stem to stern twice, what if it sank ? Survival time in below zero is almost nil !!!!!!!.
Old Hairy could probably explain the difficulties when “landing” on water or ditching , but we were always told it was much more difficult to judge height above water as smooth water looks the same from any height, and rough water, are they big waves or small ones, Come in Old Hairy and make sense of that.

Harrym . I enjoyed the story about the fire escape, and it made me wonder if the C/Os knew about these unofficial exit and entry points. I think they did, and turned a blind eye knowing full well that they had an awful lot of disenchanted airmen to control. Seem to remember one at Heaton Park, a gulley just behind the guardroom, leading out under the main road, and a previously mentioned one at Moncton, New Brunswick . Could you fill us in on as to what happened at Harrogate, my mind is a blank. Did we have the usual classes, link trainer, etc? I only remember the Yorkshire Hussar pub in Leeds and the Mucky Duck in Harrogate. I remember going away on two courses, but will describe later.

Will have to “get weaving” and knock something together on Sgt Francois Lucian whatsit, who was a very happy go lucky character (very happy, but not much luck).

Thanks, Cliff.
 

Just mentioning the "Yorkshire Hussars" brought back memories of some wonderful "after op" thrash ups there when we descended on Leeds , which was far enough from Snaith to need transport. Sciatica still bad but easing a little . I think it is from a slipped disc as I have been already diagnosed as having degeneration of two lumbar vertebrae. We shall see.
Talked to Andy tonight and I am sending some photos which he will "process" and then dsend back to me. So I will continue with my long winded story. .....

I was talking about the dodgy "George" in my last thread but it was'nt really that dodgy. It worked quite well but I always thought that it was the cause of many casualties. A lot of our trips were of very long duration , Berlin was from seven and a half hours or even more than eight. You could count on five hours as being the shortest (The Ruhr). Munich and Nurenburg between eight and a half to the infamous one of well over nine when we lost 94 Aircraft with headwinds so strong.
So continuous "weaving" for 90% of these trips was a very hard and tiring task as the Halifax was not power assisted on the controls and was a very heavy aircraft to fly manually ,let alone "Corkscrew", Remember there was no second pilot to give you a respite.
Nevertheless, from the beginning , I resisted the temptation to engage George and even Corkscrewed all the time over enemy territory which was virtually 90% of the trip. The Corkscrew was a prescribed manoeuvre of diving and turning, losing up to two thousand feet and turning 25 to 30degrees right or left as you preferred then climbing and turning again then repeating the procedure trying not to maintain a pattern .. Not easy for the crew and especially for the Navigator but I am sure that it did a lot to get us through the ever present menace of the German ME110 armed with fixed angle upward firing guns who would position themselves unseen under the blind spot of an unsuspecting four engined bomber and let blast their "NachtMusak" as they called this procedure. This invariably got the central fuel tank and the resulting explosion could be seen for many miles away and invariably caused panic.
The Ops mounted up. We were operating every two or three nights and we had many close shaves. On October 8th.1943 we were briefed to attack Hanover. Taken all round this was one of the most dangerous and yet successful trips that we did because from the time that we crossed the Dutch coast, on the way in until we recrossed it again , going out we were constantly harried and followed by fighters, searchlights and flak. We saw many combats and many aircraft going down in flames. There was a "spoof" attack going on at Bremen and, as we passed south of it we could see Stirlings were really giving it a pounding. Hanover, itself had hundreds of searchlights. We were one of the first aircraft over the target and we went over it with two other Halifaxes followed by three Me 109's spotted by Tommy Walker, our rear gunner but they made no attempt at attacking us for some reason Just after releasing our bombs over Hanover, which was already blazing fiercely, there was an almighty crash and the whole aircraft shuddered. I thought that we had been hit by flak but I managed to control the aircraft. I sent the Flight Engineer back to investigate and called out to him, as an afterthought, "Put your parachute on ". It was just as well that I did because he nearly fell through the hole caused by a large bomb from another aircraft that had gone through the roof and out through the floor just aft of the mid upper turret, leaving it's outline, still horizontal, showing that the other aircraft could not have been very far above us and yet had not been seen by the midupper gunner.
It did not seem to affect the flying of the aircraft but it did not help matters that arriving over Snaith we could not land because of fog and had to divert to Leconfield where we were the main attraction on dispersal where practically the whole station came to look at the holes. They reckoned that it would have been a 2,000lb. bomb. As a matter of interest the trip time was 6:05 hours, all night flying.
Without wishing to be called a "Lineshooter" anyone who was in on these raids ,which were the result of Bomber Harris trying to make our raids as concentrated as possible in order to cut down on the losses caused by the previous system of crossing the target in ones and twos over along periods, will tell you that it was quite commonplace to get back to base and find sticks and even boxes of incendiaries, stuck in the wings of one's aircraft. Collisions, of course, were commonplace and it was quite normal for you to suddenly find yourself battling to control the aircraft to counter the effects of another aircraft's slipstream. As an example of the concentration I remember, vividly a raid over Dusseldorf when 640 four engined aircraft bombed the city in just twenty minutes That would have been in November 1943. That was one of the shorter trips and is in my log book as 5:35 mins.
On September 6th. 1943 over Munich, a burst of flak under the tail put the aircraft into an inverted dive. It was the most horrible feeling looking up over my head and seeing Munich, blazing, and coming down towards us. Many thousands of feet later after wrestling with the controls and all my instruments useless I managed to roll it out and regain control but the inverted "G" force in the pull out nearly forced the rear gunner out of his turret. We got back safely after a long,long haul of 9:35 hrs . We were very tired because we had also been busy the night before ,Sept.5th.1943, on a very long trip to Mannheim. This time we had a very uneventful run to the target which wqs already blazing when we got there and could be seen from a hundred miles away. But... we dropped our bombs and were leaving the target when there was a burst of fire that rattled through the aircraft and I dived away,very steeply, towards the burst which came from the portside. We clearly saw a ME110 and could also see that it was being hit by the return fire of our rear Gunner, Tommy Walker. We had the satisfaction of seeing it go all the way down and crash. |The mid upper gunner was slightly wounded by the initial burst of fire. He was very lucky because he had, like a lot of the gunners were wont to do, taken out the armour plating that was placed just before his face in order to have better visibility, and I had noticed this in my preflight and told him to replace it. The German's first burst of fire had hit squarely on the plating and Roy, the Canadian mid upper, had received a splinter in his shoulder but it was a very slight wound. That was 8:10 hrs. all night flying .
I must have been given some sympathetic leave after that one because I see that my next trip was October 3rd 1943.


I think that my sciatica is telling me "enough, enough". I hope that I have succeeded in giving a small idea of what it was like. Don't forget, if you knew, but we were all non commissioned and Snaith was not a "peacetime station" so we got back to a single pot bellied stove heated Nissen Hut accomodating up to twenty four people, with straw "biscuits" for mattresses and greatcoats for extra warmth over the issue blankets.
The "esprit de corps" was magnificent but, do not kid yourselves ,quarrels among crews were rare but between crews were fairly common but never went very far and were usually settled around the local bar over the watery beer that was wartime Britain.

Harrogate
 

Yes Cliffnemo, I am sure you are correct concerning the attitude of authority towards those fire escapes - it could not have been easy keeping a horde of bored and semi-gruntled aircrew happy, and on balance we were ruled with a fairly light touch. As for keeping us occupied I only recall the odd lecture on subjects such as ship or aircraft recognition, no doubt there were others but certainly no link trainers. It has to be said that Mr William Tetley's products played a large part in maintaining morale!

harrym

Hanover
 

Regle you mentioned Hanover . Here is a picture of me in Hanover just after V.J day when stationed at R.A.F Wunstorf. Think my side pack was full of cartons of cigarettes. (black market)
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...NOVER10120.jpg
You mentioned week beer in war time Britain. the state controlled pubs in Carlisle sold weaker beer than any where else in the country. They converted to state control in W.W 1 to control the drinking of the local munition workers.

Re Hanover ,Cliff
 

I hate to think that I was partly responsible for the background in your picture, Cliff. I,too, was stationed at Wunstorf in 1949 when I was flying petrol in to Berlin in converted Lancasters for "Flight Refuelling" ,my old peacetime hero,Sir Alan Cobham's firm, on the Berlin Air Lift. We moved fairly quickly to Hamburg, which had quite an interesting night life compared with Wunstorf! When I went to Tarrant Rushton for an interview for a job with them, I found that the Chief Pilot was an old 42A classmate, Tommy Marks . But that's another story.

More Pictures
 

Nemo, sorry been busy swimming up river to avoid the credit crunch, however the flow seems to be faster than I can swim.

Reg is going to post some more pictures to me (yes the old way) and I shall under instructions from Reg post them for Reg to add the words.

What we really want from Reg is a picture of the Jeep that he met at 6000 feet!

Regards Andy

Who Was Responsible
 

Regle we all feel different now, and I would quite happily have a German as my best friend, but THEN? A picture of my home, below might give some indication as to how I felt. Particurlarly as my father , and friend from next door , were both killed. Also before joining up, I was in a fire station, as a part time ,unpaid motor cycle despatch rider when six firemen were killed.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...ach/img021.jpg

How about the Germans standing off Scarboro in a battleship and shelling it, during the first world war. Some one had to stop them.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...dleach/002.jpg[IMG]
These three oppos, German Jews with me in a jeep,who were all borne and lived in Germany until circa 37 would thank you, as would many , many Poles

As for Hamburg. The Reeperbahn, San Pauli. and Grosse Freheit. I will not enlarge, as my grandson is keeping an eye on me.

agree ..cliff
 

Cliff ,you are absolutely right, of course and to add to it I, myself, am Jewish, but.....one can't help feeling guilty but God help us if we had'nt stood up to them. We would not be exchanging our free thoughts on this splendid forum and I know that I would not have even been here, but.......!

Sgt Lucian
 

…-. …-. .- .- .-
PADDY G ex B.F.T.S Miami , how about a few posts from you ? Just re read your email, again, you wont be stealing my thunder. Nowt to steal. Same invite to any other B.F.T.S bods, even Empire Air Training Scheme (E.A.T.S) K ercs.,

At last Sgt Lucian Francois !!!!! !!!! Lucian was a good friend, and exciting company, so we soon became buddies, and both had motor bikes on camp. At this stage I would like to point out that we were both , like most of the other airmen, basically honest. Items could be left lying about and would still be there when we returned (despite Regle having his watch nicked). However this did not apply to air ministry supplies, which we considered belonged to us. The latter particularly applied to petrol, so on landing I would fill up my issue water bottle (about 2 pints) from a a conveniently placed tap just above my head, put it in my great coat pocket and slink past the guardroom, like a criminal. This was sufficient for a trip into Carlisle and back. Not so Lucian who filled up a fire bucket and boldly walked past the guard, obviously carrying water. I am sure if the C.O ever required a Kamakazi pilot, his first choice would have been Lucian. There were many more antics, too numerous to mention here, so on to the Court Martial.

Whilst at Harrogate, each weekend I used to go to my temporary home in Anlaby, East Riding and some time later, whilst at Carlisle, realised I had left my spare shoes at home. I therefore asked my “instructor” if I could borrow a Tiger Moth, fly to Blackburn Aircraft Co at Brough and collect my shoes . Permission was granted, providing it was treated as a navigation exercise, with one airman signing as pilot, and one as navigator. This resulted in Lucian and I spinning a coin, he won and elected to be the pilot, so the night before, I plotted a course and track using a Mercator chart, accurately applying variation, forecasted wind speed and direction, and ready to apply deviation the following morning. The following day, Lucian informed me he would map read to Brough, he was the boss, so we took off and I sat back and enjoyed the view. To my surprise, I suddenly noticed the Hotel Majestic, Harrogate , and I then assumed he intended to “shoot up” the hotel, as many disgruntled pilots has done before. Rumour had it that a Hurricane had smashed off a chimney pot on a previous occasion. However we headed West, and I then could see St Ethelburga’s Ladies College dead ahead, in front of which was a large playing field. Lucian throttled back and proceeded to fly in front of the college just skimming the ground, young ladies heads appeared at all the windows waving to us and presumably Lucian waving back. We then started to climb, and I assumed we would head for Brough. Not so, we did a circuit of the college and repeated the performance. At this point I forgot my previous decision not to interfere with the pilot, and shouted down the Gosport tube, to climb as the large identification numbers under each wing could be read a mile away. This only resulted in a loud laugh, after which we set course hopefully for Brough.

We eventually landed at Brough after following an erratic course, and I proceeded to hitch hike to Anlaby. This was easy as , although there were not many vehicles on the road, no one would pass by on the other side. I collected my shoes, and hitch hiked back I double checked my reliable friend to make sure he had fuelled up and away we flew. The return journey was surprisingly uneventful and we arrived at Kingstown Airfield uninjured .

That is enough for today. Next post will be entitled The morning after, or hats off.

To think there is a war being fought, and we are in Carlisle watching the tanks and jeeps roaring past in a Southerly direction.

Cliff and Lucian Francois ?
 

Cliff, Do you know if Lucian, like so many Belgian RAF Pilot's, eventually joined the Belgian Airline, Sabena ? I am in touch with their "Old Flyer's Club" and could contact them if you wanted news of him. Regle

Thanks Regle, but will answer you, after I finish the story .
Would be amazed if he finished up flying for any airline, think the pax would be jumping out of the aircraft. He was "a wizzo oppo" though.

ITW Torquay
 

Hello,
My grandfather - J.A.N. McEwan was with 5,12,and13 ITW in Torquay during the second war. I think he was squadron leader or wing commander. I am looking for any info about him or the ITW.
Hope you can help.
Regards,
Malcolm

This really is the best thread I have seen on this site...what an amazing collection of experiences you are sharing. The vintage malt I currently have in my hand is well and truly raised in your honour!

Additionally, Reg, you mention visiting Betty's in York. I'm from York and know Betty's quite well...is your name by any chance etched on the famous mirror, along with the names of many other wartime aircrew?

Keep up the good work Cliff and Reg! :ok:

No 5 Initial Training Wing
 

Just had a nice conversation on the phone (SYPE) with one of our contributors in Ontario, he says the snow is 2 metres deep there. It used to snow in feet when I was there.
Thanks for the toast tommyov, hope it was Glenmorangie.

Magslmac, sorry I can’t remember a lot about Torquay, sweet cider form the barrel (oak) was excellent, strong and cheap. The climate was good. However I will try and produce below a photo of our billet, think it was The Windermere Hotel. (camp beds eight to a room). I can remember Clay pigeon shooting on a headland , (Babbacombe ?) P.T (when raining) on the sprung dance floor in the Town Hall. Marching, between classes and again when raining, wearing capes/groundsheets, airman for the use of. Opting to play golf on sports afternoon, as it was unsupervised, with bus fares provided, and then traveling to the cinema in Paignton instead.

With regard to the photo. This shows my flight at No 5 I.T.W, with our flight sergent Kellar?, our Flying OFFICER, and I believe our Sqdn leader.. Possibly a second flight is also included as our flight consisted of 30 A.C2 s.

The only other time I was near the Sqdn Leader , was when I was “On guard “ at the Hotel entrance one night. Armed with a S.M.L.E 303, and nothing up the spout, a squadron leader approached me.
I called out “who goes there friend or foe” , the squadron leader replied “friend,” I followed up with 1250 please sir. As expected he said I’m your squadron leader, to which I replied 1250 or I fire. He produced his 1250 (identity card) and said well done airman. He could have just used the back door .
I must add, that our flight sergeant, F.O and Sqdn Leader where strict disciplinarians, but absolutely fair, and perfect gentlemen.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...UPITW122-1.jpg

CORRECTION.
I think I would have used a gnomonic projection map for my trip to Brough , rather than Mercator chart. Not much room in a Tiger Moth. Just put it down to pre-senile dementia.

Cliff, I hope this doesn't appear a morbid question, but did you ever tally up how many of your course made it through to VE (or VJ) Day?

You'll probably have read Don Charlwood's excellent "No Moon Tonight". His crew was the first in his squadron (100 Sqn?) in 12 months to complete a 30 mission tour.

During their training, someone remarked that there were instructors from Coastal Command and other commands, but none from Bomber Command and wondered why. It wasn't until they got onto their squadrons that they discovered the rather sobering answer.

Probably an even better read, by the same author, is "Journeys into Night". It tells the same story as "No Moon Tonight", but was written ~thirty years after the war, where the author was more willing to give a "warts and all" version of events and (I'm assuming) enough people had died to allow him to be somewhat more forthcoming in criticising some of his leaders. Of Charlwood's (navigator's) course of 20, fifteen were killed, almost all of them in Bomber Command.

coincidence, Cliff
 

We have a lot more in common than Liverpool, Cliff. The Flt/Sgt Discip sitting in the front row in your ITW picture was called Skoular. I can't vouch for the spelling, it might have been Schoular or Skoular and he was Egyptian. He was also my Flt/Sgt i.c B Flight at No 6 ITW at Aberystwyth when I was there from Dec 1940 until March 1941. He was very tough and very fair as I remember. Our Corporal was a Cpl. Beaton and he and the F/Sgt were a darned good team. Just one of the numerous coincidences that I have encountered during my life. I seem to remember that his moustache was a bit more luxurious when I knew him but then he would have been about a year younger. By the way, in the thread from "Wiley", he asked if you knew how many survived the war. According to statistics , Bomber Command alone, had 55,000 aircrew killed or missing, more than the entire number lost by the brave men of the Merchant Navy.
While I am here at the desk.....I'll get on with a bit more of my story..... There was always a huge gasp of dismay when the curtain was drawn at Briefing and we saw the long ,tortuous track of the red ribbon finishing at "The Big City" as we always referred to Berlin. We knew that we were in for over eight hours of nerve wracking tension and knew that there would be a savage reception awaiting us.
I had been a Flt.Sgt. for a very long time but one day I was called to the Wingco's Office and was interviewed by a very charming Air Vice Marshall Carr . It was a very brief interview and consisted of two questions;" How long have you been on Operations ?" and "What does your Father do ?". The answer to the first was "Over a year , Sir " and the second was "He is an RAF Signals Officer at Helwan, Egypt, Sir." His answer was short and sweet but addressed to my Squadron Commander. "I do know that Helwan is in Egypt and see that this chap does his next Op as an Officer. " As a matter of fact my commission came through in under three weeks , together with that of my Navigator and my Bomb Aimer and I found myself as a very new Pilot Officer for my first Op as a "sprog" . The target was a place that no one had ever heard of and it was very unusual that we were operating at all as it was full moon and we had never been called upon to operate at that time before. We were told that it was a vital target and was a secret Radio Station and if we didn't destroy it that night we would have to go back every night until it was destroyed. We were also told that 4 Group,which was our Group, of course, had the doubtful honour of leading the raid which consisted of around six hundred four engined bombers, mainly Halifaxes and Lancasters.
You have, of course , guessed, by now, that the target was Peenemunde, a small place on the Baltic and the breeding ground for the V2 Rockets that would wreak such havoc later......much later as a result of this operation. I see that the remarks in my log book just say "Quiet trip. Bombed and got an aiming point " or words to that effect. I was astounded to hear that we had lost 42 aircraft, 30 of them over the target as we had not seen any signs of fighters, just the usual flak and searchlights. We had not been told that 30 Mosquito's had been sent, as a diversion , to Berlin and timed to look as though they were the leaders of the main force so that the German fighters had been "scrambled" to Berlin and only arrived over Peenemunde towards the middle of the operation and had then really taken their toll. Once again, luck had played such a huge part of staying alive.
The Germans had used, for one of the first times, their answer to "Window" . It was called "Wild Boar" and was to use every fighter available, even their daylight fighters and get them up high enough to see the bombers silhouetted against the searchlights, fires and the cloud below if there was any. Incidentally I got the code name wrong for the upward firing guns mounted on their fighters. It was not "Nacht Musik" but was "Schrage Musik" (It might be "schraage") Schrage Musik was "Jazz" or "Kinky" as was the idea of fixed upward firing guns, but it worked . Our answer was "Monica", A device that beeped whenever anything came near the blind spot roughly under the main spar. The trouble was it could'nt distinguish betweeen friend or foe and as there were always hundreds of other aircraft around, Monica would sing during the whole trip and was, as often as not, switched off.
I made three trips to Berlin and on one of them had a very unusual experience. We were lucky enough to be one of the first Halifax Squadrons to be equipped with radial Bristol Hercules engines and we could now join the Lancs at the dizzy heights of 22,000 ft where, or so they told us, the flak was less accurate. On this night, over Berlin, it was as light as day because of the low cloud ,the searchlights and the fires blazing below. I had just started my bombing run when I looked out to my left and was astounded to see a Messerschmit 109 about four hundred yards away , literally formated ,just out of our range on our port wing. He stayed there and I told the gunners not to fire as it was useless and would only draw others to the scene. He flew across the target with me as we bombed, then the pilot pointed towards his guns, shrugged his shoulders, gave me a "thumbs up" sign then half rolled on to his back and dived away. We were "coned" after that by three searchlights but I got my head down in the cockpit to avoid being blinded and did some violent weaving and managed to get away.......

regle and cliffnemo, you may find SilverWings of interest. From a thread running at http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...a-florida.html

Did you know some of you chaps contributed to the war effort even before starting training? Lifted from the link.

A constant stream of relatively fast unescorted passenger ships crossing the Atlantic, kept the cadets enrolling in 5BFTS at the rate of 100 every nine weeks. The ships had a good safety record made possible by naval intelligence obtained from the ultra secret Enigma code-breaking carried out at Bletchley Park near Milton Keynes. Even so, it required excellent seamanship to avoid contact with the 120 U-Boats operating in the Atlantic on any one day in 1943! One such crossing was dramatic however in May 1941. The "Britannic" was carrying cadets destined for the Arnold Scheme. Unknown to the cadets the ship was being used as bait for the German battlecruisers "Bismarck" and "Prince Eugen". It worked and the German warships sailed into the ambush prepared by the Royal Navy.

I wonder if I could butt into this fascinating thread for a moment while it still might have the interest of many of those who learned to fly in the USA.

After an immensely adventurous life Flt Lt Lawrence Mitchell died recently and, although the family know that he was an RAF instructor in Texas before going onto Typhoons and Tempests in Europe, they have very little information on his life at that time. Like many war heroes he remained fairly tightlipped about that period of his life.

I just wondered if anyone following this thread might have crossed paths with him and be able to provide any stories which could be passed on to the family. I know that they have followed the official RAF channels and, although they have been very helpful, their information has done little to reveal the character of the man. Based on the rest of his life, which included winning his class in the Le Man 24 Hour race, I would imagine that his RAF life was just as colourful.

Pictures Posted for Reg to comment
 

Reg has asked me to post 3 of his pictures, he will add his comments on a following posting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...l999/reg/6.jpg

B FLIGHT 6 ITW ABERYSTWYTH (spelling help from Mrs AndyL)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...l999/reg/3.jpg

REG (avec moustache) Snaith 1943 under his Halifax

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...l999/reg/7.jpg

REG and his FATHER 1942

Thank you, Andy
 

The photograph of B Flight ,No 6 ITW, Aberystwyth would have been taken around Feb/March 1941. The F/Sgt. Choular (I think that is the name, Cliff) is sitting, third from the left, in the front row; I am standing, fourth from the right, in the back row. I hope that you recognise him, Cliff. On his left is his Corporal Beaton. The moustache did not last for very long, Dora, and many others ,hated it so off it came. The photograph of me and my Father would have been taken mid 1942. I would have been 20 (8th. May), and my Father 41, possibly 42 (1st. Sept.)

The Britannic, Brian Abraham
 

I think that I told the story of being in the Atlantic on board the Britannic, in one of my first threads. I had seen it depart from Liverpool on it's maiden voyage when I was a very little boy. We were 500 cadets forming the very first part of the "Arnold Scheme" which was to become vital to the supply of well trained pilots for the RAF. we were surprised to find that we had the "Rodney" and four Destroyers as our escort and dismayed when they left us very soon after sailing, to seek and sink the "Bismarck". We were never told of this beforehand but the Grapevine kept us informed all through the battle with the dreadful news of the loss of the "Hood" giving us much to think about before we heard that the "Bismarck" had been given the "coup de grace " by the "Rodney ". Stirring Days! There is a photo ,on an earlier page (13 or thereabouts) taken on board the "Britannic" of us all of 42A enjoying a ship's concert. Brings to mind the quotation "Regardless of their doom, the little innocents played," I don't know who wrote it. I still have a copy of the Toronto Newspaper with the headlines "British Cadets Chased by the Bismarck" . We set sail May 22nd. 1941 and landed in Halifax, Nova Scotia, May 30th.1941 so it all happened just a couple of weeks after my 19th. Birthday. it is a long, long time ago.

It's this.....

Thomas Gray

Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College

Ye distant spires, ye antique towers,
That crown the watery glade,
Where grateful Science still adores
Her Henry's holy shade;
And ye, that from the stately brow
Of Windsor's heights the expanse below
Of grove, of lawn, of mead survey,
Whose turf, whose shade, whose flowers among
Wanders the hoary Thames along
His silver-winding way.

Ah, happy hills, ah, pleasing shade,
Ah, fields beloved in vain,
Where once my careless childhood strayed,
A stranger yet to pain!
I feel the gales, that from ye blow,
A momentary bliss bestow,
As waving fresh their gladsome wing,
My weary soul they seem to soothe,
And, redolent of joy and youth,
To breathe a second spring.

Say, Father Thames, for thou hast seen
Full many a sprightly race
Disporting on thy margent green
The paths of pleasure trace,
Who foremost now delight to cleave
With pliant arm thy glassy wave?
The captive linnet which enthrall?
What idle progeny succeed
To chase the rolling circle's speed,
Or urge the flying ball?

While some on earnest business bent
Their murmuring labours ply
'Gainst graver hours, that bring constraint
To sweeten liberty:
Some bold adventurers disdain
The limits of their little reign,
And unknown regions dare descry:
Still as they run they look behind,
They hear a voice in every wind,
And snatch a fearful joy.

Gay hope is theirs by fancy fed,
Less pleasing when possessed;
The tear forgot as soon as shed,
The sunshine of the breast:
Theirs buxom health of rosy hue,
Wild wit, invention ever new,
And lively cheer of vigour born;
The thoughtless day, the easy night,
The spirits pure, the slumbers light,
That fly the approach of morn.

Alas, regardless of their doom,
The little victims play!
No sense have they of ills to come,
Nor care beyond today:
Yet see how all around 'em wait
The ministers of human fate,
And black Misfortune's baleful train!
Ah, show them where in ambush stand
To seize their prey the murderous band!
Ah, tell them they are men!

These shall the fury Passions tear,
The vultures of the mind
Disdainful Anger, pallid Fear,
And Shame that skulks behind;
Or pining Love shall waste their youth,
Or Jealousy with rankling tooth,
That inly gnaws the secret heart,
And Envy wan, and faded Care,
Grim-visaged comfortless Despair,
And Sorrow's piercing dart.

Ambition this shall tempt to rise,
Then whirl the wretch from high,
To bitter Scorn a sacrifice,
And grinning Infamy.
The stings of Falsehood those shall try,
And hard Unkindness' altered eye,
That mocks the tear if forced to flow;
And keen Remorse with blood defiled,
And moody Madness laughing wild
Amid severest woe.

Lo, in the vale of years beneath
A grisly troop are seen,
The painful family of Death,
More hideous than their Queen:
This racks the joints, this fires the veins,
That every labouring sinew strains,
Those in the deeper vitals rage:
Lo, Poverty, to fill the band,
That numbs the soul with icy hand,
And slow-consuming Age.

To each his sufferings: all are men,
Condemned alike to groan,
The tender for another's pain;
The unfeeling for his own.
Yet ah! why should they know their fate?
Since sorrow never comes too late,
And happiness too swiftly flies.
Thought would destroy their paradise.
No more; where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise.

Bits And Bobs
 

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...NDBRASS123.jpg

VETS.

Does the above black object bring back happy memories of barrack room sports? It should appear as brass coloured, but that's scanning for you.

Gallons of Brasso must have been wasted until Anodized buttons appeared. ;)

Brasso, Duraglit And Button Sticks.
 

BRAKEDELL.
And after the Brasso came forth Duraglit.

WILEY.
You can ask any questions you want to, morbid or otherwise, with one exception. No questions about the Reeperbahn, Hamburg. 15 course at Ponca consisted of (all approximate figures ) 104 cadets, including 17 American. 22 were eliminated leaving 65 British of which 9 killed.. This comparatively low figure, may be due to it being far safer stoking steam trains, as was mentioned in previous posts.

PULSE1.
Have the relatives of F/L Mitchell googled 1 BFTS. . Think there is an American 1 B.F.T.S association, and possibly a British one. Also The Royal Air Force forum, and the R.A.F commands forum, might help.

REGLE,
Your reference to the Britannic , Hood, Rodney etc, reminded me of that old mess song, (becoming all nostalgic again)

I called on my sweetheart they called her Miss Brown.
She was having a bath and she couldn’t come down
?????????
?????????
So roll on the Nelson, the Rodney, Renown,
You can’t say the Hood, cos the backstuds gone down..

I wonder if the modern aviators still sing daft songs in the mess.

Highly unlikely, I'd say :E

Aaaaargh! Button sticks!! Those horrible things were still around when I went through Cranwell in 1968. The joys of Brasso and Duraglit - and picking the residue out of the crowns with a matchstick....

Then along came 'Staybrite' (sp?) buttons. First they were flat, then 'high dome' in design.

But then we started wearing the scruffy woolly pully - and buttons became largely a thing of the past except when wearing No1s for parades, weddings and AOC's bollockings.

Super thread, cliff - do think about getting a book published!

As & Ns ...
 

Oh how Cliffnemo's stories bring things back !!! Thanks a lot from one old(ish) Cold Warrior who trained at 6 FTS Ternhill in 1950 (35 P course) ...

My reason for posting is that the SBA approach stories reminded me of an occasion under the hood in a Harvard when I was concentrating so hard on getting to the steady beam, with Ns (or As) fading into it, that when the "TN" station callsign broke the dot/dash transmission, I failed to notice that the dit-dah plus steady note had changed to dah-dit...
Nice steady approach towards Shawbury before my instructor suggested I might be interested in the scenery before me ... (P/O Warburton wasn't the gentlest of instructors, but he did teach me a lot !).:ugh:
Thanks again all the predecessors !!!

J P, that reminds me of an incident that occurred in 1956 when a student on our course, flying solo in a Piston Provost, called downwind at what he thought was Ternhill, turned finals at Shawbury and was shot down by a red very from the caravan, which lodged inside the radial cowling and set fire to the engine, forcing him to carry out his first forced landing at a mirror image of Ternhill.

Torquay ITWs
 

Norman,
Did you know Sqdrn Leader James AN McEwan who was in Torquay ITWs in 1940's?
He was my grandfather.
Malcolm

Cliff
 

Did you recognise FLt,Sgt. Choular from my photograph of B Flight 6ITW Aberystwyth ? I think, in fact I am sure that it is one and the same man who is sitting to the left of the officers in your photo at Torquay. I had a lot of respect for that man as he was scrupously fair and a very .decent chap that you could take your toubles to. Regle' I find our two careers fascinating as they run side by side but in a different time warp and then , occasionally they run in to a common factor such as the sharing of the same Flt/Sgt. Discip. You have far more technical knowledge than me. That was always my weakest subject as I was not particularly mechanically minded.

To Molemot
 

Thanks for the provenance of my quotation. How true it rings, even or especially, in these days. How nice to read the splendid words that I had never seen in full. I have just told Cliff that I was never very practically minded , Classic literature was always my preference. Don't know how I became a pilot... Perhaps the sheer beauty of Flight was the answer. All the best, Regle.

#1 B.f.t.s Terrel Texas
 

I (cliffnemo) Just found this in my inbox. Cliff
Flag this message

re: 1 B.F.T.S
Tuesday, 3 February, 2009 1:50 AM
From:
"Al Castleman" <[email protected]>
Add sender to Contact



WOW!! Good to hear from you. I found your thread at


PPRuNe. Top notch stuff. I will sign up and join in on the fun. I am on the Board of Directors for the No1 B.F.T.S. Museum in Terrell Texas. The rest of the Board members will enjoy the web site also.



More soon,



Al

Regle

I read with admiration of your bravery in the accounts of raids you took part in during WW2.

I have one question that I wonder whether you can answer.

In the early 1970’s I was stationed at the JHQ at Rheindahlen near Mönchengladbach (MG) in Germany. The quarter we occupied was alongside the Buntegarten, one of the better areas of MG and not far from the town’s most prominent landmark a massive 170ft high water tower built on the highest spot in town which dominated the town and surrounding countryside.

One of my German neighbours, a schoolboy during the war in MG, said that the water tower, because it was so large an object, was used as an ‘aiming point’ by allied bombers during their raids on the town. I had no way of knowing whether this was true or not, but I wonder did you take place in any raids against MG and if so did your briefing make reference to the tower at MG as a possible aiming point?

The following two photos show the MG water tower.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...atertower1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...atertower2.jpg

And here is what the Bomber Command Campaign Diary — for Sept 1944 says:

RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary

Monchengladbach Rheydt
 

Warmtoast,

I used to live near Rheydt - there is a large landscaped "hill" in a park by the A61 autobahn. I believe that the hill was constructed from the debris from the bombing raids you mention.