Military Hours into Civvie World

[GipsyMagpie]

Originally Posted by whirly_bird_boy

Thanks Ken, but I'm not sure it is. The point I'm making is that although I wear RAF uniform while the flying the Tutor, surely I can put it in a civie logbook since it's a civilian registered aircraft? To my knowledge, it's the only example of this setup in the RAF. Thanks

Not the only example actually - occasional use of civil registered aircraft at Boscombe too.

Of note, flying civil registered aircraft in the military is covered in regulations but not the one you might think. The military regulations do not apply to this type of flying but rather it's all regulated by the UK Air Navigation Order. There is an allowance in the (Article 249?) that military pilots may fly civil registered aircraft in the course of their duties without a civil licence - clearly the military will need you to have the right qual though. The MAA helpfully will soon push out a regulation which highlights which MRP rules then apply to that pilot (which includes pilot quals, medicals, instrument ratings,instructor quals). What the list did not include was RA2401 which has the rules for recording of flight times.

So if you kept up with that regulatory knot, you will realise that when a military pilot flies a civil aircraft he should record his flying time in accordance with civil rules not the military ones. Other issues include carriage of passengers, rules of the air, applicability of MATZ.

So if you are a Tutor pilot, do you really know what rules you're flying to? But at least you can justify recording chock to chock in your logbook (the civil one - Beags had good advice there)

[NotInTheNavy]

Greetings all, I've been looking into the 'new' logging of hours under EASA and can't find a solid answer. Before I contact the CAA (and wait 6 weeks to be told that it is 'in the EASA Air Ops' - which it isn't) I thought I'd seek wisdom (!!) here.

I did my ATPL(A) while flying in the military. Then when I left I 'converted' my hours iaw LASORS 2010, and went overseas. From then on logged chocks off to chocks on as per the normal. Now I'm back in Europe and have a nice new EASA-compliant logbook, but I don't know how to transfer my hours!

Sounds stupid, but the columns for ME used to be P1 / P2 / Dual and a separate column for Captain/Aircraft Commander. The EASA logbook (and regs) now have PIC / Co-Pilot / Dual (except SE of course). Before looking I just transferred the hours, but that means all of my P1 hours are now in the PIC column, which can't be right! How am I supposed to log all my previous P1 (non-Capt) hours? Do I have to go back and work out all the hours I was P1 (non-Capt) and put those in the Co-Pilot column? That would not be fun (and I doubt that is what people are doing...).

Incidentally because I'm doing LT as a Captain it does say I can log them as PIC, as long as my LTI signs my logbook (something he had never heard of before, but is stated in part-FCL). I know lots of civvies who just carried on using their military logbooks, but surely now they aren't EASA-compliant...?

Does it matter? Is it legal? I know you can be fined for an incorrect log but I've never heard of it happening. Wouldn't be a bad thing to see occasionally though, as I have seen MANY people 'rounding up' their hours and no one ever checked. Also, according to EASA it appears you can log all IFR hours now (whether or not the AP is in!). No wonder my previous colleagues had thousands more hours 'IF' than me, despite a lot less total. I still only log hours IMC manual flying (Act) or VMC instruments only (Sim).

I've been looking at this for months now, so any response is appreciated! NITN

[parabellum]

The point I'm making is that although I wear RAF uniform while the flying the Tutor, surely I can put it in a civie logbook since it's a civilian registered aircraft? To my knowledge, it's the only example of this setup in the RAF. Thanks

If you are flying a civil registered aircraft for hire and reward I think you will find that you are legally obliged to keep a civilian log book, it isn't a matter of choice?

[GipsyMagpie]

Originally Posted by parabellum

If you are flying a civil registered aircraft for hire and reward I think you will find that you are legally obliged to keep a civilian log book, it isn't a matter of choice?

it's not commercial flying. the passenger (the air cadet) has not bought a ticket and the cadets organisation is effectively the same as the operator: the MOD.

[CharlieJuliet]

Wings at end of Basic with 166 total and 62 PIC.

[parabellum]

has not bought a ticket and the cadets organisation is effectively the same as the operator: the MOD.

Yup, see your point, so, is the pilot getting paid to fly a civilian registered aircraft? There is no ticket revenue from crop sprayers, pure freighters etc. There has to be a cost and it isn't born by the pilot. Mute point, I agree, I am just curious.

[deltahotel]

There's plenty of revenue from pure freighters - probably a lot more than pax.

[5aday]

I was in the CP chair at JEA in the early 1980s for the best part of 4 years. The number of entries in the RAF log book was never a question I asked. Most of the applicants had to become type rated anyway at JEA 's costs and I thought it stupid to exact a training cost such as I was subject to in Loganair. It was usually a case of where do you live, age of your kids, and could you tolerate a posting in Liverpool until the next applicant joins. It was almost impossible to recruit a pilot for a Jersey posting because of Right to work in Jersey and the so called 2nd class Housing.
After about 2100hrs each night, it felt as though you were locked in anyway.

[pk456]

Would anyone have a contact number or email for someone from EFT? I graduated a good few years ago and looking to see if I can get a copy of my course completion certificate to make getting an NPPL much more straightforward. No longer in so trying to find contacts is difficult!

[Mogwi]

I think that you will find that a certified photocopy of the relevant log-book page will suffice.

Mog

[Lima Juliet]

Originally Posted by pk456

Would anyone have a contact number or email for someone from EFT? I graduated a good few years ago and looking to see if I can get a copy of my course completion certificate to make getting an NPPL much more straightforward. No longer in so trying to find contacts is difficult!

Err, NPPLs died on 8 Apr 18 if I recall correctly, so it’s an EASA LAPL or EASA PPL or nothing now?

Front page: http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/

[Sloppy Link]

Errrm...NPPL remains to account for AnnexII Aircraft. Oddly, a N licence is issued but to your highest qualification, I find myself flying an ex mil helicopter on an NATPL((H).

[pk456]

Originally Posted by Mogwi

I think that you will find that a certified photocopy of the relevant log-book page will suffice.

Mog

Unfortunately the BMAA are telling me its either the course completion certificate or nothing. I have the logbook waiting and signed.
Any contacts still greatly appreciated.