Military Hours into Civvie World
 

Hi all,

Does anyone have any advice on the slickest way of logging and switching military hours into civvie speak? Is it most common to use an e-logbook now and can we still add 10 mins to each FW sortie for taxi time?

Yours aye, ST

The accepted formula when I departed the fix was 10 mins per sortie except for wheeled helos and displays, they were 5 mins. Multis accrued 15 mins but skidded helos and embarked ops got nowt.

Mind you, that was '94 and the minutes were probably longer then!

Depends upon what you are using the hours for and whether you are flying a heavy, light a d whether it's prop or blow job.

Google caa LASORS replacement. I think if it's not in LASORS, It's in the replacement cap.

CAP804 Part O is your friend: CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing and SRG2133 SRG2133: Confirmation of Military Experience for Military Experience for Military Accreditation Scheme (MAS) Credits in Accordance with Article 10 of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011

Of note it says not to add taxy time under section 5. :ok:

1. There is NO 'formula' for converting military-logged flight time these days.

2. As I've told people repeatedly - KEEP 2 LOGBOOKS!! One being your military log book, in which military flying is recorded in accordance with military practice. The other being a civil logbook, in which ALL flying is logged chock-to-chock, in accordance with civil practice.

3. Don't listen to people who quote previous methodology - times have changed, unfortunately.

4. CAP804 was cancelled on 24 Aug 2016. It is being re-written, but there is no indication of any release date. Neither is there likely to be any change in the pitiful state of military accreditation, thanks to that pair of numpties in 22 Straining Group who failed to bring the previous hard-won JAR-FCL accreditation into the Part-FCL era...:mad:

Beags

CAP804 is for "reference only" until the new ANO is put into it. This is what the CAA currently say:

Description:CAP 804 covered UK requirements for pilot licensing and a guide to the new European Flight Crew Licensing requirements to April 2015. This edition remains available for reference only.

A new and restructured Air Navigation Order came into force on 25 August 2016. Article references have completely changed and new EASA regulations have been developed since CAP 804 was last issued. In the light of these significant changes the need for a restructured and updated version of CAP 804 that reflects current UK law and EU regulations is currently being reviewed.

If it is "for reference only" it is not entirely cancelled.

Best

LJ

PS the SRG2133 is up to date...

LJ, dealing as I do with licence queries on almost a daily basis, I'm fully aware of the current state of affairs.

Although I was instrumental in achieving the previous military accreditation system, it will need someone with sufficient dedication and regulatory knowledge to challenge and improve the poor system you have today.

When I attended a CAA/EASA meeting some years ago at Gatwick, EASA assured the audience that "You are the experts - it's up to you" when I asked whether the extant military accreditation system would continue under the Aircrew Regulation. But it was up to MoD to write the appropriate proposal, as the (then) Head of Licensing told me, "We'll endorse whatever MoD decides - but don't ask us to do the work to write any proposal".

That was after I left the RAF. The rest is, sadly, history.

Incidentally, the RAF would have lost EFT accreditation towards the Part-FCL Aerobatic Rating if I hadn't pointed out to the CAA that the input from the alleged military expert was nonsense as it hadn't given any credit for items such as advanced stalling, spinning, recoveries from the vertical etc.

Why the RAF always shoots itself in the foot when applying for civil accreditation is frankly beyond me....:ugh:

Absolutely me old fruit, it's just that your chosen words could be misinterpreted as CAP804 is not worth a read. :ok:

Best

LJ

LJ - blond genug!

.....

I've always thought that we also miss a trick the other way around as well. Why does a PPL holder have to do a full EFT and an ATPL or f/ATPL holder have to do everything including MELIN/ME courses? Surely, we could do better than that? Wasn't there a VC10 Nav with f/ATPL that was trialled in the right hand seat for an OCU? I always heard that it had gone quite well?

The B Word :confused:

Grob Tutor hours
 

Folks, pretty clear from the info above, thank you. I am wondering though; I have a load of Grob Tutor hours in my RAF logbook, which is a civilian registered aircraft (G-BY**). I had planned to transpose these hours into a civie logbook, adding 10 mins per sortie. Thoughts please? Thanks

The clear answer is above, from Beagle at post #5

Looking at the requirements for an EASA ALTP(A) and ALTP(H) I cannot see how an RAF pilot with a reasonable time of service that repays his training costs can fail to meet the criteria.

Thanks Ken, but I'm not sure it is. The point I'm making is that although I wear RAF uniform while the flying the Tutor, surely I can put it in a civie logbook since it's a civilian registered aircraft? To my knowledge, it's the only example of this setup in the RAF. Thanks

Can't imagine why the RAF would not want to ease the path to civilian licences.......

Oh........ hang on ........

Because it was originally a recruiting and retention incentive!

Recruiting - get a qualification which, should you so wish, you can later use in civilian life.

Retention - you won't get significant credit unless you stay in the Service for a reasonable length of time (it used to be 2000 hrs TT, 1500 PIC of which 500 could be PIC U/S).

Whereas now there's no significant accreditation, so the RAF is back to the days of people doing CPL work during their first tour, then jumping ship as soon as they can....:rolleyes:

In addition, there's so little solo time during flying training for ME aircraft that it wasn't all that long ago that experienced TriStar co-pilots were having to build their PIC time at the Brize Flying Club on PA-28s, so that they met the 70 hr minimum needed for a CPL....:\

A relative of mine got their Tristar Command with a total of 90 hours actual P1!
EFT/UAS Grob and a bit of mutual without instructor in the King Air. (All the RAF aircraft flown P1 were joint RAF/Civil G Reg. Grob/King Air. So the times in 2nd. civil log book (As per Beagle advice) all times recorded chock to chock as the Civil normal, and all were accepted by the CAA when applying for the ALTP)
An ALTP courtesy of the Voyager Conversion followed , and straight on to an A380 in civvy land.

o tempora o mores!

I had no idea BEags - I know that "that was then and this is now" but I see from logbook Vol 1 that I had 55 hrs PIC when I got my Wings and a total of 95 when I arrived on my first Sqn........

Hmmm...

At the end of Basic Flying Training, when I qualified for my Wings I had 265 hours military flight time, of which 92 was as PIC - admittedly 138 of the 265 were at the UAS, as were 55 of the 92.

Plus another 14 PIC and 21 Dual on my Flying Scholarship...:ok:

I think BEagle's post is clear enough. If you keep two logbooks, fine. But there's no accepted conversion method.

Just check: you are qualified to fly the Tutor? i.e. You have at least a PPL and variable pitch sign off in your civilian logbook?