Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
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In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?
FWIW I went to Sleaford Tech as 32 year old NCA Flight Sergeant and I was a called a plastic to my face by a course "mate" who was an SAC Admin Sec. He flunked IOT and got recoursed and then totally failed Navigator training as well.
Chiselling little dritzekt.
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.... You've told us that NCO pilots had no problem being accepted as equals by their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?
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Didn't meet much of it during the war. Would have been understandable, though. Here you are, a Fitter (Eng), say, who has worked hard for ten or fifteen years to reach the Sgt's Mess and along comes this aircrew sprog with six or nine month's service and he's in with you !
You had one consolation, however - he might be dead next week.
Danny.
You had one consolation, however - he might be dead next week.
Danny.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Danny, I expect numbers were a factor too with large numbers of aircrew. Also I expect a certain amount of natural segregation with crew, sqn, aircrew staying in their own groups.
I'm aware of a newly-fledged NCO Observer arriving at Leeming not long after the new scheme was introduced in 1940 to find that the Station Commander "did not regard Observers and WOP/AGs as Sgts and therefore we lived in barracks, with bunk and room inspection daily." So not just opposition from longer-serving personnel - though the fact that Leeming was still being developed may also have affected matters.
just ask any of us "plastics".
In my bank statement!
CG (DE Airman Aircrew, as it was then called.)
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Unfortunately, ttn, many of them weren't alive long enough to cause resentment ..or otherwise
Obviously back then we had tens of thousands of pilot seats to fill. Not a problem that's likely to recur.
Obviously back then we had tens of thousands of pilot seats to fill. Not a problem that's likely to recur.
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The term plastics is of course still in force today with the NCA cadre.
I did find however that it was selectively used against those that were acting like 19 yr olds in the Mess, those that could act like a SNCO were ususally given the benefit of the doubt by those that had served there time.
I did find however that it was selectively used against those that were acting like 19 yr olds in the Mess, those that could act like a SNCO were ususally given the benefit of the doubt by those that had served there time.
those that could act like a SNCO were ususally given the benefit of the doubt by those that had served there time.
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Posted by TTN
In later years this was also a cause for annoyance amongst ground crew. In IIRC, the late 1960´s, 3 year apprentices from Halton etc., were graduating as Cpl´s promoted automatically to Sgt. after a year in the real world. As 20 y/o´s they were joining units with long serving SNCO´s of many years experience.
You've told us that NCO pilots had no problem being accepted as equals by
their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who
had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?
their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who
had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?
Gentleman Aviator
And for those who don't know (or are a little out of date) one can now join the RAF as a Direct Entry Air Traffic Controller - with the rank of Sgt!
Seems the logic went thusly:
1. You can be a Sgt (Aircrew) at 19 or 20.
2. You can be an Air Trafficker (commissioned) at 19 or 20.
3. Lets combine 1 & 2!! (cos we're short of Air Traffickers!)
Seems the logic went thusly:
1. You can be a Sgt (Aircrew) at 19 or 20.
2. You can be an Air Trafficker (commissioned) at 19 or 20.
3. Lets combine 1 & 2!! (cos we're short of Air Traffickers!)
Going back to the OP- wasn't having only officers dropping instant sunshine (and all the secret stuff attached to it) a factor too?
As one wag pointed out: if an airman did it- look out, but if an officer did it, well that's just high spirits innit!
CG
As one wag pointed out: if an airman did it- look out, but if an officer did it, well that's just high spirits innit!
CG
wasn't having only officers dropping instant sunshine (and all the secret stuff attached to it) a factor too?
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I did find however that it was selectively used against those that were acting like 19 yr olds in the Mess, those that could act like a SNCO were ususally given the benefit of the doubt by those that had served there time.
End of thread drift...if someone else wants that last word, crack on.
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NCOs and Piloting
Readers might think NCO pilots disappeared shortly after the war but there were still some around in the early 60s.
At Acklington we had a WO instructor and very good he was to. we also had a Sergeant pilot in the training HQ who.s unhappy duty it was to sit with us on low level trips and report but that might have been because one of our number had been Court Martialled for low flying
At Acklington we had a WO instructor and very good he was to. we also had a Sergeant pilot in the training HQ who.s unhappy duty it was to sit with us on low level trips and report but that might have been because one of our number had been Court Martialled for low flying
I'd have been quite happy to have been a Sgt pilot.
Whether that would have made any difference to airline selection I've no idea.
I'd already been a TA REME craftsman (private).
Re young bloods respecting experience, I went to sea as a 19yo instant engineer officer having only been an apprentice fitter/turner for four years. Our fireman must have been through the war in the engine room. I wish I'd been a bit more respectful to him.
Buggah! I must have led a charmed life.
Whether that would have made any difference to airline selection I've no idea.
I'd already been a TA REME craftsman (private).
Re young bloods respecting experience, I went to sea as a 19yo instant engineer officer having only been an apprentice fitter/turner for four years. Our fireman must have been through the war in the engine room. I wish I'd been a bit more respectful to him.
one of our number had been Court Martialled for low flying
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Thanks people for the real replies, and even the "not this cr*p again" replies. I genuinely have not read a NCO vs Commissioned thread before now, so feel a little stoopid for asking!
I was, for 10years, an RAF Rigger - and whilst serving no one seemed to know the answer - even some of the more "down to Earth" grow bags I used to speak to did not know the answer - hell, some of 'em admitted to only holding a commission because without it they could not fly!
I must say though, the only credible answer I ever got, was from a friend who was posted to Liverpool CIO for a while, who said it was due to unsupervised discharging of weapons - Army pilots are considered "teeth" Arms, under the command of a battlefield commissioned officer - whereas RAF/RN pilots were employed to prosecute targets which they sometimes assigned to themselves.
I was, for 10years, an RAF Rigger - and whilst serving no one seemed to know the answer - even some of the more "down to Earth" grow bags I used to speak to did not know the answer - hell, some of 'em admitted to only holding a commission because without it they could not fly!
I must say though, the only credible answer I ever got, was from a friend who was posted to Liverpool CIO for a while, who said it was due to unsupervised discharging of weapons - Army pilots are considered "teeth" Arms, under the command of a battlefield commissioned officer - whereas RAF/RN pilots were employed to prosecute targets which they sometimes assigned to themselves.
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Originally Posted by teeteringhead
And for those who don't know (or are a little out of date) one can now join the RAF as a Direct Entry Air Traffic Controller - with the rank of Sgt!
Getting back to the base topic, one factor has been alluded to but slightly skimmed over. One needs an officer pyramid to feed the various leadership/staff jobs up that greasy pole all the way to CAS [or CEO Air, or whatever title it is nowadays].
I had mentioned before a study I conducted into the ratio of NCO/Officer controllers in ATC. Again, reading the pyramid from the top down and taking account of the number of 'executive' posts at all the rank levels, we determined/proved that our ratio of about 60% Officers and 40% NCO controllers was about right, if the Officers were ever going to be fit/able/experienced to fulfil the responsibilities of ranks above fg off. It started as an attempted cost-saving measure, but actually proved that we needed 60% officers for the pyramid to be able to function.
I suspect similar factors are in play in the RAF and RN on the pilot side. The Army has, as we know, a completely different slant on flying, with career paths and 'Regimental duties' creating a non-comparable environment.