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China's Wing Loong is also armed and suposedly operational...
So apart from the US, UK, Israel, Iran, China and a whole host of countries seeking to get armed unmanned persistant ISTAR - who does have them?
Welcome to the 21st Century!
So apart from the US, UK, Israel, Iran, China and a whole host of countries seeking to get armed unmanned persistant ISTAR - who does have them?
Welcome to the 21st Century!
LJ, I am not disputing that. I am disputing some other country just flying a RPAS over the M1 and targeting a car. The question was whether it was legal. The answer is no. I also tried to explain why other countries are able to do this in other parts of the world and get away with it. Again, it would be extremely difficult nigh impossible to do it over the UK without creating the mother of diplomatic incidents.
As for China, Iran, Russia or any other country actually using RPAS for targeting purposes, we haven't seen any reports. Again, if Russian were to use RPAS in Chechnya, Dagestan etc then it would be up to them to explain the legalities. In fact, it wouldnt surprise me if they had already done so.
I am trying to answer a specific post by someone on this forum regarding a specific question aired in the media. The fact that other countries have unmanned, armed and persistent ISTAR is not in dispute.
As for China, Iran, Russia or any other country actually using RPAS for targeting purposes, we haven't seen any reports. Again, if Russian were to use RPAS in Chechnya, Dagestan etc then it would be up to them to explain the legalities. In fact, it wouldnt surprise me if they had already done so.
I am trying to answer a specific post by someone on this forum regarding a specific question aired in the media. The fact that other countries have unmanned, armed and persistent ISTAR is not in dispute.
Last edited by Toadstool; 24th Oct 2013 at 02:05.
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The UK/US community no longer assuredly has effective dominance concerning radar and other (e.g. optical) stealth technology , nor on the control of off-the-shelf system components for RPAS construction.
The MoD , since 2009, has distanced itself from investigation of UAP ( Unexplained Aerial Phenomena) reports for justifiable reasoning at that time.
I would suggest that, since then, the "no threat " argument about the presence of possibly unexplained objects in our airspace seems to be increasingly complacent .
Specifically, I am thinking in the light of such recent events as possible "quad-copters" reported over 12 French Nuclear associated sites, conceivably associated with malevolent intent.
Perhaps the U.K should follow the French example and consider putting in place a formal structure for handling and evaluating such reports?
I am thinking particularly in instances when they may be opportunistically captured on still or FMV imagery and also not necessarily implying their investigation solely from within MoD resources.
( In France this arena is primarily the responsibility of the Gendarmerie, with CNES also maintaining a study group, with some additional indirect funding from Airbus).
The MoD , since 2009, has distanced itself from investigation of UAP ( Unexplained Aerial Phenomena) reports for justifiable reasoning at that time.
I would suggest that, since then, the "no threat " argument about the presence of possibly unexplained objects in our airspace seems to be increasingly complacent .
Specifically, I am thinking in the light of such recent events as possible "quad-copters" reported over 12 French Nuclear associated sites, conceivably associated with malevolent intent.
Perhaps the U.K should follow the French example and consider putting in place a formal structure for handling and evaluating such reports?
I am thinking particularly in instances when they may be opportunistically captured on still or FMV imagery and also not necessarily implying their investigation solely from within MoD resources.
( In France this arena is primarily the responsibility of the Gendarmerie, with CNES also maintaining a study group, with some additional indirect funding from Airbus).
Ah so they've kicked off the new year by droning on again 
Funnily enough just finished reading Fiat Jusita, A History of Royal Air Force Police, by Stephen R Davies.
On the bit about Greenham Common adventures , 3/4 way through the book, the SNCO mentions how saw his colleagues stood by to as three women breaking in by cutting the section of the perimeter fence. He asked why no one was reacting and the other RAFP SNCO said they would have to ask the MoDP as they had their hands tied. Luckily that all changed and the first SNCO said it was quite clear that the breaking the law of the land was taking place so he ordered the two corporals to follow him over the barbed wire and promptly arrested the ladies!
Cheers
Funnily enough just finished reading Fiat Jusita, A History of Royal Air Force Police, by Stephen R Davies.
On the bit about Greenham Common adventures , 3/4 way through the book, the SNCO mentions how saw his colleagues stood by to as three women breaking in by cutting the section of the perimeter fence. He asked why no one was reacting and the other RAFP SNCO said they would have to ask the MoDP as they had their hands tied. Luckily that all changed and the first SNCO said it was quite clear that the breaking the law of the land was taking place so he ordered the two corporals to follow him over the barbed wire and promptly arrested the ladies!
Cheers
Had a laugh with Plod years ago at Greenham , about getting the screaming harridans away from clutching the wire.
All to do with making a fist and sawing across the back of the clutching hand with the knuckles ........
Not that I was there of course..........
All to do with making a fist and sawing across the back of the clutching hand with the knuckles ........
Not that I was there of course..........
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Around '62, whenI had the subsidiary job of Fire Officer at Linton, my firemen told me that a "pre-mix" of foam agent and water, sprayed on these pests without air-injection into foam, would render them unapproachable by even their nearest and dearest for quite some time (and many baths) - for they stank to high heaven. 
Don't know if it was true, and if so where it was tried.
D.
Don't know if it was true, and if so where it was tried.
D.
How do you arrive at that conclusion, other than your own assumptions with biases noted in the rest of your post.
Ever heard of the Grim Reaper? He is the image of death.
That version of the Predator is a machine of war. In war, things get killed. Assassination is a very small subset of the general category "killing other people." Your rhetoric and overstatement is noted.
We are on the Military Aircrew sub forum, right?
(In an "on your side" point I can see why the Brits might wish to use their own name for their own birds. Call it whatever you like, it need not be Reaper if that sound doesn't fit right to the British ear ... )
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ah, Lone star, a whole new thread
Certainly we had a tradition of naming or renaming for instance P40 Kittihawk or our Tomahawk. Though we mixed the C130/F4/E3 with Hercules/Phantom/Sentry we kept your name but used the designated too. With the CH47 we tend to use the name. Modern usage suggests we keep your naming.
MQ9A doesn't roll off the tongue.
Certainly we had a tradition of naming or renaming for instance P40 Kittihawk or our Tomahawk. Though we mixed the C130/F4/E3 with Hercules/Phantom/Sentry we kept your name but used the designated too. With the CH47 we tend to use the name. Modern usage suggests we keep your naming.
MQ9A doesn't roll off the tongue.
[
]'Reaper' has a longer British heritage as a name....
Gloster used it for the F9/37, and then again for the G-7-1 ground attack version of the Meteor, famously 'cartwheeled' by Jan Zurakowski.[/]
]'Reaper' has a longer British heritage as a name....Gloster used it for the F9/37, and then again for the G-7-1 ground attack version of the Meteor, famously 'cartwheeled' by Jan Zurakowski.[/
]
The Grim Reaper maybe a symbol of death, but "reaping" is just gathering or receiving. Think of it as gathering intelligence, that's what some RAF spokesman said once on social media somewhere.
Dave, thanks for that insight. I suspect you have nailed it. The F-16 Falcon, official name, is called the Viper by the pilots. (I think that goes back to a pop culture reference from the 1970's, a TV show called Battlestar Galactica with Lorne Green. Memory may not serve me there).
When Reaper arrived operationally, one of its advantages over Predator was the ability to carry/deploy significantly more robust munitions: going from a Hellfire missile to a GBU-12 (500 lb LGB) offers the ground commander calling for aerial attack more options/more firepower from on high.
I feel like we are in a play "What's in a name?"
An armed RPV by any other name can still deliver firepower.
When Reaper arrived operationally, one of its advantages over Predator was the ability to carry/deploy significantly more robust munitions: going from a Hellfire missile to a GBU-12 (500 lb LGB) offers the ground commander calling for aerial attack more options/more firepower from on high.
I feel like we are in a play "What's in a name?"
An armed RPV by any other name can still deliver firepower.
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I don't condone what these people have done - but I am sympathetic to their protest. I think that the use of armed drones undermines the status and virtues of military service.
So anyone who does not agree with the "virtue" of any government entity should be free to engage in illegal activities to protest that entity? Really?
And separately, I've done LOTS of things while in military service. Some were virtuous, most were not. The military can be used for humanitarian operations which could reasonably be called a "virtuous" use of the military, but I would like to point out that the military is specifically designed and equipped to deliver rather extreme violence on people and their property, to include releasing weapons capable of laying waste to an entire city. Please explain the "virtue" in such actions.
I really struggle to see quite why these devices attract such vitriol?
The only difference between a Reaper and a Typhoon is the location of the pilot, though BEagle seems to get rather foamy at the mouth about them.
SPIT,
In the 50's and 60's the V-Force bases were regular destinations for really huge ban the bomb marches, many illegal entries were made, they were treated then exactly as they are treated now.
The only difference between a Reaper and a Typhoon is the location of the pilot, though BEagle seems to get rather foamy at the mouth about them.
SPIT,
In the 50's and 60's the V-Force bases were regular destinations for really huge ban the bomb marches, many illegal entries were made, they were treated then exactly as they are treated now.
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I think it's rather sweet that they cut the fence and what have you. To paraphrase Dennis Healey it's like being savaged to death by a dead sheep.
They are just a few well meaning folk (residents of Waddington will know of the old lady in the caravan) who are making a protest, while not strictly legal, in the good old fashioned Brit way. Nothing to see here, move on.
They are just a few well meaning folk (residents of Waddington will know of the old lady in the caravan) who are making a protest, while not strictly legal, in the good old fashioned Brit way. Nothing to see here, move on.
thing, that's broadly true. However, there's a particular naivety which is worrying. The last incursion involved people wanting to plant a "peace garden" somewhere on the base. This is being described as well-meaning peaceful protestors wanting to stage an entirely non-violent demonstration within the base.
However, it happened at a time of high tension. The terrorism alert state is SEVERE. News outlets are talking about the "greatest terror threat in history," and commenting that attacks are "inevitable."
With the security situation like that, it's understandable that there's a very fine line between someone sneaking through a hole in the fence with flowers in their hair, high-vis vests and a banner, and someone sneaking through with a suicide vest or a weapon.
If they'd done it under cover of twilight and were spotted by the guard force, there's a decent chance (bearing in mind the alert state) that they could have been shot. And with any trespasser being a potential terrorist with murder on their mind, I hope they're given a severe punishment to dissuade others from protests like this.
I'm all for peaceful protest and I think we absolutely should engage with people who have a dislike for UAVs and educate them a little. Comments like:
... show that they simply don't understand. Anyone who's flown a Harrier or Tornado over Afghanistan and has then seen the same sort of sorties from a Reaper will know that if anything, you're MORE engaged and involved in the action when viewing it day in day out on a large screen that you ever were sat staring at the horizon in a jet cockpit.
So I don't see it as innocent and sweet, and I don't even see it as informed and correct. If only to make folks at Waddington feel more secure and show that breaking onto a military base during a time of increased terrorism alertness isn't on, I hope they all go to jail.
However, it happened at a time of high tension. The terrorism alert state is SEVERE. News outlets are talking about the "greatest terror threat in history," and commenting that attacks are "inevitable."
With the security situation like that, it's understandable that there's a very fine line between someone sneaking through a hole in the fence with flowers in their hair, high-vis vests and a banner, and someone sneaking through with a suicide vest or a weapon.
If they'd done it under cover of twilight and were spotted by the guard force, there's a decent chance (bearing in mind the alert state) that they could have been shot. And with any trespasser being a potential terrorist with murder on their mind, I hope they're given a severe punishment to dissuade others from protests like this.
I'm all for peaceful protest and I think we absolutely should engage with people who have a dislike for UAVs and educate them a little. Comments like:
war has been rehabilitated and accepted as virtually normal by those who see little or nothing of the impact on the ground thousands of miles away."
So I don't see it as innocent and sweet, and I don't even see it as informed and correct. If only to make folks at Waddington feel more secure and show that breaking onto a military base during a time of increased terrorism alertness isn't on, I hope they all go to jail.
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DISCLAIMER! I have never been in the Military,nor employed by HMG (other than as an unpaid VAT , income tax and NI collector)
I grew up with the concept that the Law was to be obeyed and MOD property was sacrosanct. What went wrong?
Re-education is a priority....just as the thickest thicko understands that climbing over the Railway fence is liable to be detrimental to life, so they should understand that trespass on property occupied by the Nation's Defence forces,is likely to be , at best, extremely painful and at worst, Terminal.
Not hard to educate every schoolkid and send it home with a Very Important leaflet (was tempted to say, "flyer"
) The Dole queue and deadbeats can similarly be targetted by their Benefits department....then there's the idiot-lantern for the ones that miss.....after 6 months, there is no reason that any man, woman or child, living in the UK, should not be aware that trespass on MOD property invites quick, violent retribution.
I.m sure that after a couple of well-publicised shootings of terrorists, the risks will be seen to be disproportionately high, for the returns.
Of course, that won't deter the fanatical Terrorist, but if the likes of the Glasgow Airport firebombers is anything to go by, they aren't the sharpest pencils in the box.
Respect for our defences needs to be restored PDQ educate and inform, then enforce!
I grew up with the concept that the Law was to be obeyed and MOD property was sacrosanct. What went wrong?
Re-education is a priority....just as the thickest thicko understands that climbing over the Railway fence is liable to be detrimental to life, so they should understand that trespass on property occupied by the Nation's Defence forces,is likely to be , at best, extremely painful and at worst, Terminal.
Not hard to educate every schoolkid and send it home with a Very Important leaflet (was tempted to say, "flyer"
) The Dole queue and deadbeats can similarly be targetted by their Benefits department....then there's the idiot-lantern for the ones that miss.....after 6 months, there is no reason that any man, woman or child, living in the UK, should not be aware that trespass on MOD property invites quick, violent retribution.I.m sure that after a couple of well-publicised shootings of terrorists, the risks will be seen to be disproportionately high, for the returns.
Of course, that won't deter the fanatical Terrorist, but if the likes of the Glasgow Airport firebombers is anything to go by, they aren't the sharpest pencils in the box.
Respect for our defences needs to be restored PDQ educate and inform, then enforce!