Very rare 50 year old Photo. Sycamore XG518 desert rescue.
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Very rare 50 year old Photo. Sycamore XG518 desert rescue.
A rare 50 year old slide of Bristol Sycamore XG518 during an actual desert rescue. Slide dated 1963.
I aquired this Kodak slide in the 70s via a work collegue "Mark De-silva, ex RAF" of Berkshire. Copyright passed to me.
This Sycamore is now restored in the Norfolk and Suffolk museum in Flixton.
So come on you old wrinklies, is there anyone out there remember this Helicopter during its operational life and afterwards upto its present resting place?
I know its a long shot but I would also like to know where this Sycamore was operating in 1963, to give me some idea of the location.
I have vague recollections that Mark told me it was at one of the Near/Middle East RAF staging posts.
OPF
Mods, May I ask that if you feel this is better in "Rotary" forum, that it be left here for a while under the wider scope of this Forum.
I aquired this Kodak slide in the 70s via a work collegue "Mark De-silva, ex RAF" of Berkshire. Copyright passed to me.
This Sycamore is now restored in the Norfolk and Suffolk museum in Flixton.
So come on you old wrinklies, is there anyone out there remember this Helicopter during its operational life and afterwards upto its present resting place?
I know its a long shot but I would also like to know where this Sycamore was operating in 1963, to give me some idea of the location.
I have vague recollections that Mark told me it was at one of the Near/Middle East RAF staging posts.
OPF
Mods, May I ask that if you feel this is better in "Rotary" forum, that it be left here for a while under the wider scope of this Forum.
Last edited by Old Photo.Fanatic; 23rd Apr 2014 at 23:58.
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Not turned up keesje??
...the poor old buggers are still getting out of bed and having their breakfast for Gawd's sake. Give them a bit of time to put their teeth back in.
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...the poor old buggers are still getting out of bed and having their breakfast for Gawd's sake. Give them a bit of time to put their teeth back in.
Judging by the shadows the time is about midday. That means that the navigator, the chap in the blue suit and helmet, is putting the casualty in the left hand seat so that the pilot can keep an eye on him, The Sycamore, because its take off performance is so bad, will fly the casualty to wherever and then return for the navigator.
In El Adem the pilot would winch the survivor up, who then had to get in by himself, and the winchman would wait in the dinghy for the Sycamore to return.
In El Adem the pilot would winch the survivor up, who then had to get in by himself, and the winchman would wait in the dinghy for the Sycamore to return.
Very nice and sharp photo 
though nice to see the Flying Bulls / Hangar 7/8 peeps have the one and only airworthy flying Sycamore in old RAF Transportation Command colours. I saw it by Hangar 8 in Salzburg last year and year before
Guess the Sycamore did well for its basic technology as a SAR machine at the time,
Cheers
though nice to see the Flying Bulls / Hangar 7/8 peeps have the one and only airworthy flying Sycamore in old RAF Transportation Command colours. I saw it by Hangar 8 in Salzburg last year and year before Guess the Sycamore did well for its basic technology as a SAR machine at the time,
Cheers
I would think late-ish, datewise ... I only have 309 and 504 from the introduction of the Sycamore to K'sar. The scenery in the 'photo is very reminiscent of the area around Mukheiras - on the plateau (5-6000' asl) - you wouldn't expect anything like that amount of greenery around the coast. If it was there, the take-off could have been 'interesting' !! We did a search for an out-of-contact Regiment platoon and eventually found them in a wadi at about 3000' asl. I think the pilot was M.Plt 'Tommy' Tomczak (later Pavey) and having landed, he reckoned getting airborne needed a 'jump' takeoff. Wind up the power and revs to max pull to the hover and ... pray!!
It worked but only by virtue of the light local breeze drifting us along the gently descending wadi. The dear old Sycamore was not noted as being over-powered - as evidenced by my first 'wet barrels' - got hooked on (after an absolute age!) and started to pull in the rope - which succeeded in pulling the helo' towards the welcoming sharks and mantas - the joys of ignorance!!
"Nurse, Nurse,! - two more of those tablet things, a brow soothing hand and a cup of Horlicks, if you please - the excitement is getting too much for me!"
It worked but only by virtue of the light local breeze drifting us along the gently descending wadi. The dear old Sycamore was not noted as being over-powered - as evidenced by my first 'wet barrels' - got hooked on (after an absolute age!) and started to pull in the rope - which succeeded in pulling the helo' towards the welcoming sharks and mantas - the joys of ignorance!!"Nurse, Nurse,! - two more of those tablet things, a brow soothing hand and a cup of Horlicks, if you please - the excitement is getting too much for me!"
Last edited by Cornish Jack; 23rd Mar 2013 at 19:10.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
The blades were made of wood (gulp)
G'day Herod - ah, yes - wooden blades - works of art, always supplied as a matched set and total change if one damaged; balanced such that cyclic forces were minimal Can't vouch as I only had about 10 minutes 'famil' on the controls. Its big limitation was the power - the Lycoming was not suited to 'hot' OR 'high' and demonstrated this regularly in K'sar. Apart from the oddities such as the Hillman Husky hub cap idea
, I seem to recall Tommy pointing at 44" of power and translational lift to lift a 5 gallon barrel out of Steamer Point inner harbour!!
Blade tracking, IIRC, was enough to reduce the strongest to tears!!
You are to be congratulated on missing the 'joys' of the Sycamore. Among its many pecularities, its tricycle gear (and 3 blades) made it particularly prone to ground resonance I recall one of the Tern Hill QHIs telling me that, on his conversion course, he touched down in the middle of the airfield and held it a little too lightly as he settled - one moment, good - next sitting strapped into a seat surrounded by mega fresh air and only a limited remainder of centre console bits ... VERY rapid!!
Tablets?? Don't know what they are, but the nice lady nurse says that the pretty blue colour is to make them easy to find again when I've dropped them - shaky hands due, I reckon, to Nursey constantly displaying her talents ... that's what we used to call them in the good old days!
More Horlicks, please!
, I seem to recall Tommy pointing at 44" of power and translational lift to lift a 5 gallon barrel out of Steamer Point inner harbour!! Blade tracking, IIRC, was enough to reduce the strongest to tears!!You are to be congratulated on missing the 'joys' of the Sycamore. Among its many pecularities, its tricycle gear (and 3 blades) made it particularly prone to ground resonance
I recall one of the Tern Hill QHIs telling me that, on his conversion course, he touched down in the middle of the airfield and held it a little too lightly as he settled - one moment, good - next sitting strapped into a seat surrounded by mega fresh air and only a limited remainder of centre console bits ... VERY rapid!!Tablets?? Don't know what they are, but the nice lady nurse says that the pretty blue colour is to make them easy to find again when I've dropped them - shaky hands due, I reckon, to Nursey constantly displaying her talents ... that's what we used to call them in the good old days!
More Horlicks, please!
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"Desert Rescue", that's not real desert wiv lots of green stuff and a few rocks lying around. This is real desert:
Always reckoned the K'sar mob were a bit naff!!
Always reckoned the K'sar mob were a bit naff!!
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Don't know why, really, but it was quite a surprise to see this aircraft in yellow, a tradition of course carried on through the Whirwind, Wessex and Sea King in the rescue role. But it does raise a question in my mind: what was the origin of the all yellow colour scheme in the rescue role? Was it with the Sycamore? It was a traditional colour for training aircraft much(?) earlier, but at what point did it cross roles?
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what was the origin of the all yellow colour scheme
And continuing on that thought one has to wonder why it was felt necessary to squander payload by having a "navigator" on board. You'd think it would be obvious, even to their airships in their monumental wisdom that the answer would be to teach the damn pilot to navigate especially in an aircraft that could barely cope even with lifting a map. Adding a gash 200lb body to achieve that (weightless) feat is a blinding bit of Whitehall brilliance is it not?
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 24th Mar 2013 at 00:12.
We used to dream of Wooden Blades....back when we had Fabric Blades.
The helicopter pilots of yore....were very brave fellows they wuz!
The helicopter pilots of yore....were very brave fellows they wuz!
Correct. Powered by the Alvis Leonides mounted horizontally across the fuselage. The control system was a gimballed rod that went up through the rotor shaft to a spider on top that was connected to the pitch horns on the blades from above. A system later used on the Scout. This gave you two benefits; appalling power margins and limited control authority. It was used as the Royal Air Force’s basic helicopter trainer up to 1965 and as so was a brilliant choice because if you could fly a Sycamore you could fly ANYTHING.
The drive system was a centrifugal clutch so when starting the engine one had to be careful not to crash engage the rotor if the engine rpm went over 1,500. The starting was typical Leonides. Fuel pump on, magnetos on, starter motor switch with one hand, primer switch with the other and throttle with the third. The fourth would be holding the cyclic in case the rotor brake slipped. A failure to start was normally accompanied by a conflagration from the exhaust in which case the drill was to gun the starter motor until either the fire went out or grew in intensity so that everybody, including you, left the immediate area. When it burst into life it was stabilised at about 1,200 rpm to warm up. Whilst this was happening the generator was on line so you could switch on electrical services. This gave you an necessary opportunity to check the fore/aft CofG.
As I mentioned before, control authority was somewhat limited. It didn't matter so much laterally but there was insufficient for all circumstances fore and aft. To cater for this there was a hydraulic trimming system; basically a tank of water under the pilot’s seat and a smaller tank in the boom by the pylon. The front tank had a gauge and the contents were adjusted to suit the single /two pilot and/or passengers. Get this wrong and when you lift into the hover you go backwards or forwards quite rapidly.
After this you engage the rotor. On modern helicopters you check the needles and hydraulic pressures as the rotor accelerates. On the Sycamore, no such problem, no hydraulics. It had manual controls with Q feel, i.e. big adjustable springs that had trim wheels, fore & aft and lateral, to enable you to retain control. At flat pitch and IIRC 245 Rrpm you checked the cyclic movement and the trim effect. You also checked the freewheel because if that didn't and the engine stopped you were dead. Once you had set the trim to two notches right and on notch back you lifted into the hover.
They had installed a pilot's aid in the Sycamore. It took the form of a cam on the collective linkage that opened the throttle progressively as you raised the collective. Unfortunately it used to drag and lead quite ferociously. To overcome this and maintain a constant Rrpm one had to close the throttle for the first third of travel and open it for the last bit. The throttle was mounted laterally on the end of the collective pointing inwards to the pilot so it worked in the opposite sense to a motorcycle which caused a multitude of amusing situations. Once in the hover you adjusted the trim and checked available power.
The Leonides as fitted to the Provost T1, my previous experience with it, had a normal take off rating of 2,800 rpm, 4.5 lbs boost/38 in MAP for five minutes and an emergency rating of 3,000 rpm 8 lbs boost/46 ins MAP from two minutes. A Sycamore with two up and full fuel would hover at 2,850 rpm and 42-44 lbs MAP so you didn't do it for long. Should you for various reasons, temperature, altitude, etc not be able to hover then one could use the previously mentioned 'jump takeoff'. This involved speeding the rotor up tp 275 Rrpm pulling the collective up as high as you could at the same time applying full throttle. The aircraft would 'jump' into the air and when you were airborne you would trickle the aircraft forward so that you acquired transitional lift before the Rrpm died off too much. To give you an idea of how much collective you had available there was a notched plate on the floor with an indicator pin.
Once airborne the incredible efficiency of the Hafner rotor blades in forward flight would show itself. One could sit back, trim out the cyclic so that it flew by itself at 125 knots in perfect comfort. Any other manoeuvre required brute force and an excellent memory because if you wanted to do what you were doing again you noted the control positions because that was where you were going to have to put them.
Being a training aircraft in its later days one had to teach and practise engine off landings. Because of the afore mentioned throttle cam the engine had to be shut down because otherwise the cam would rev the engine when cushioning the landing. This gave rise to the following procedure on finals to a suitable landing area, ideally an airfield in from an altitude in excess of 1,000 ft.
Throttle closed collective down to the bottom, flare, wait for the rotor to start to overspeed then pull the collective up two notches on the gauge to stabilise Rrpm. At 60 kts autorotate and accelerate the engine to 1,200 rpm to stabilise and cool it. This is to make sure it starts after landing. After, preferably 30 seconds shut the engine down. At about 200 ft start flaring off the speed and as soon as it drops to approx. Zero add two more notches of collective. The aircraft will now descend quite rapidly so at about ten feet before entombment pull half the available collective. This will arrest the rate of descent sufficiently to enable the remaining collective to cushion the landing. However:---------- one cannot land vertically because of the design of the undercarriage. This is mounted in such a way that when the weight goes on the wheels they move out sideways. At best this would cause the tyres to roll off the rims and at worst one would dig in and leave the aircraft lurching over with a decaying rotor and no authority. To overcome this the aircraft is moved forward at the last moment so that it rolls on to the ground.
Then the panic No 1 starts! The droop stops were notoriously unreliable so the engine had to be started before the Rrpm dies away and the blades hit the boom. That being achieved heart conditions advise a return to dispersal and coffee.
On shutdown the engine is throttled to idle and above the windscreen are mirrors so that you can see if static droops stops have engaged. When the three rods are vertical then the engine can be shut down. Should one or more not engage then Panic No 2 comes into play.
The blades will not clear the boom if the droop stops are not engaged. The mass balance on the end of a blade sticks out forward of the tip and resembles an inert 20 mm. cannon shell. In extreme condition to stop these chopping the pylon off a large leather patch is glued to the boom to encourage them to bounce of. At base we were slightly more sophisticated.
To prevent the blades hitting the boom the fire section would come out with a high pressure hose. They would aim a jet of water over the boom/pylon joint from the starboard side so that as the blades slowed and lost lift they would bounce off the water and over the boom.
The RAF stopped using them for training in 1965 after a series of rollovers so they were only used by 32 Sqn at Northolt, day only. I flew one there after a few years on Whirlwinds and I realised that I was ducking at 3 Rrpm all the time. It was because I had forgotten how close the rotor blades missed the cockpit roof by.
As I said before, the best training aircraft the Air Force ever had; an experience never to be repeated.
The drive system was a centrifugal clutch so when starting the engine one had to be careful not to crash engage the rotor if the engine rpm went over 1,500. The starting was typical Leonides. Fuel pump on, magnetos on, starter motor switch with one hand, primer switch with the other and throttle with the third. The fourth would be holding the cyclic in case the rotor brake slipped. A failure to start was normally accompanied by a conflagration from the exhaust in which case the drill was to gun the starter motor until either the fire went out or grew in intensity so that everybody, including you, left the immediate area. When it burst into life it was stabilised at about 1,200 rpm to warm up. Whilst this was happening the generator was on line so you could switch on electrical services. This gave you an necessary opportunity to check the fore/aft CofG.
As I mentioned before, control authority was somewhat limited. It didn't matter so much laterally but there was insufficient for all circumstances fore and aft. To cater for this there was a hydraulic trimming system; basically a tank of water under the pilot’s seat and a smaller tank in the boom by the pylon. The front tank had a gauge and the contents were adjusted to suit the single /two pilot and/or passengers. Get this wrong and when you lift into the hover you go backwards or forwards quite rapidly.
After this you engage the rotor. On modern helicopters you check the needles and hydraulic pressures as the rotor accelerates. On the Sycamore, no such problem, no hydraulics. It had manual controls with Q feel, i.e. big adjustable springs that had trim wheels, fore & aft and lateral, to enable you to retain control. At flat pitch and IIRC 245 Rrpm you checked the cyclic movement and the trim effect. You also checked the freewheel because if that didn't and the engine stopped you were dead. Once you had set the trim to two notches right and on notch back you lifted into the hover.
They had installed a pilot's aid in the Sycamore. It took the form of a cam on the collective linkage that opened the throttle progressively as you raised the collective. Unfortunately it used to drag and lead quite ferociously. To overcome this and maintain a constant Rrpm one had to close the throttle for the first third of travel and open it for the last bit. The throttle was mounted laterally on the end of the collective pointing inwards to the pilot so it worked in the opposite sense to a motorcycle which caused a multitude of amusing situations. Once in the hover you adjusted the trim and checked available power.
The Leonides as fitted to the Provost T1, my previous experience with it, had a normal take off rating of 2,800 rpm, 4.5 lbs boost/38 in MAP for five minutes and an emergency rating of 3,000 rpm 8 lbs boost/46 ins MAP from two minutes. A Sycamore with two up and full fuel would hover at 2,850 rpm and 42-44 lbs MAP so you didn't do it for long. Should you for various reasons, temperature, altitude, etc not be able to hover then one could use the previously mentioned 'jump takeoff'. This involved speeding the rotor up tp 275 Rrpm pulling the collective up as high as you could at the same time applying full throttle. The aircraft would 'jump' into the air and when you were airborne you would trickle the aircraft forward so that you acquired transitional lift before the Rrpm died off too much. To give you an idea of how much collective you had available there was a notched plate on the floor with an indicator pin.
Once airborne the incredible efficiency of the Hafner rotor blades in forward flight would show itself. One could sit back, trim out the cyclic so that it flew by itself at 125 knots in perfect comfort. Any other manoeuvre required brute force and an excellent memory because if you wanted to do what you were doing again you noted the control positions because that was where you were going to have to put them.
Being a training aircraft in its later days one had to teach and practise engine off landings. Because of the afore mentioned throttle cam the engine had to be shut down because otherwise the cam would rev the engine when cushioning the landing. This gave rise to the following procedure on finals to a suitable landing area, ideally an airfield in from an altitude in excess of 1,000 ft.
Throttle closed collective down to the bottom, flare, wait for the rotor to start to overspeed then pull the collective up two notches on the gauge to stabilise Rrpm. At 60 kts autorotate and accelerate the engine to 1,200 rpm to stabilise and cool it. This is to make sure it starts after landing. After, preferably 30 seconds shut the engine down. At about 200 ft start flaring off the speed and as soon as it drops to approx. Zero add two more notches of collective. The aircraft will now descend quite rapidly so at about ten feet before entombment pull half the available collective. This will arrest the rate of descent sufficiently to enable the remaining collective to cushion the landing. However:---------- one cannot land vertically because of the design of the undercarriage. This is mounted in such a way that when the weight goes on the wheels they move out sideways. At best this would cause the tyres to roll off the rims and at worst one would dig in and leave the aircraft lurching over with a decaying rotor and no authority. To overcome this the aircraft is moved forward at the last moment so that it rolls on to the ground.
Then the panic No 1 starts! The droop stops were notoriously unreliable so the engine had to be started before the Rrpm dies away and the blades hit the boom. That being achieved heart conditions advise a return to dispersal and coffee.
On shutdown the engine is throttled to idle and above the windscreen are mirrors so that you can see if static droops stops have engaged. When the three rods are vertical then the engine can be shut down. Should one or more not engage then Panic No 2 comes into play.
The blades will not clear the boom if the droop stops are not engaged. The mass balance on the end of a blade sticks out forward of the tip and resembles an inert 20 mm. cannon shell. In extreme condition to stop these chopping the pylon off a large leather patch is glued to the boom to encourage them to bounce of. At base we were slightly more sophisticated.
To prevent the blades hitting the boom the fire section would come out with a high pressure hose. They would aim a jet of water over the boom/pylon joint from the starboard side so that as the blades slowed and lost lift they would bounce off the water and over the boom.
The RAF stopped using them for training in 1965 after a series of rollovers so they were only used by 32 Sqn at Northolt, day only. I flew one there after a few years on Whirlwinds and I realised that I was ducking at 3 Rrpm all the time. It was because I had forgotten how close the rotor blades missed the cockpit roof by.
As I said before, the best training aircraft the Air Force ever had; an experience never to be repeated.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 24th Apr 2014 at 14:51.
Zetec2 and FED - of course!!
My only excuse is aging memory and the blue tablets!! FED's exposition of the Sycamore's eccentricities was superb. From the winching point of view it also had the disadvantage of the exhaust (mega-hot!!) being in EXACTLY the right position to fall naturally to hand as a hand hold when approaching the cabin on the winch ... spoken from personal experience
Re. colour - I've just had a look back at one of my B&W shots from that period - not definitive but looks as though it is NOT yellow.
Re having a Nav - although characterised as such, the role was actually much more a winch operator. When K'sar first got their Sycamores, there was a shortage of Navs so we (Valetta 'siggies') were offered a chance to fill in for about 3 months - combining with the Valetta work. Three of us had a go - self, Jeff Wigley and Brian Fletcher - fascinating and great fun
My only excuse is aging memory and the blue tablets!! FED's exposition of the Sycamore's eccentricities was superb. From the winching point of view it also had the disadvantage of the exhaust (mega-hot!!) being in EXACTLY the right position to fall naturally to hand as a hand hold when approaching the cabin on the winch ... spoken from personal experienceRe. colour - I've just had a look back at one of my B&W shots from that period - not definitive but looks as though it is NOT yellow.
Re having a Nav - although characterised as such, the role was actually much more a winch operator. When K'sar first got their Sycamores, there was a shortage of Navs so we (Valetta 'siggies') were offered a chance to fill in for about 3 months - combining with the Valetta work. Three of us had a go - self, Jeff Wigley and Brian Fletcher - fascinating and great fun
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
This is real desert
http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps8501b8ab.jpg
Wadi Jizi, near Buraimi, UAE