Early Ferranti Ins System
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Between the devil and the deep blue sea
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My father was a Ferranti man through and through and was involved in Silverknowes from joining in the early 60s. He was offered and took early retirement in the 90s when BAE bought what was by then GEC Marconi. His last years were as MD of the INS and EO divisions. Although he's retired now, I suspect would be able to give you warts and all - PM me if you want me to put you in touch. Being the old spotter that he is, I am sure he would be fascinated to relive his youth.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Munich/Gemany
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Incredible...
Yes, Tatjanas web page and her equipment are really impressive.
She has a a Litton LN3 up and running, too:
Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform, videos
But the FIN101x systems are not that bad, too. The platform itself
is of a patented design (US4152942) and really a masterpiece of
mechanical design. The included computer (bit serial beast utilizing
only standard TTL chips distrubuted over several PCBs) is rather
small in size (design obviously from the 1970ties - PCs and home
computers have not been invented then) and very archaic, but
does a lot of arithmetics and spherical trigonometry!
She has a a Litton LN3 up and running, too:
Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform, videos
But the FIN101x systems are not that bad, too. The platform itself
is of a patented design (US4152942) and really a masterpiece of
mechanical design. The included computer (bit serial beast utilizing
only standard TTL chips distrubuted over several PCBs) is rather
small in size (design obviously from the 1970ties - PCs and home
computers have not been invented then) and very archaic, but
does a lot of arithmetics and spherical trigonometry!
Thread Starter
Baigar, #19
Hi Erik,
Have been trying to make some free time to have a closer look at the
unit and start doing some digging for info, but coincidentally, a member
of another forum that I mentioned this unit on has been in touch in the
last couple of days and may be able to help. If I were superstitous, I
might think this was the result of some mysterious confluence of forces.
It's been months since I posted here and in the other forum and then 2
messages almost at once. Time to grasp the nettle, I think.
The other forum is the "Secret Projects Forum", which has loads of
interesting info on old avionics and more. Suggest you have a look. Have
written a long reply to the pm, so hope I don't frighten him off.
He has worked on just about all the Ferranti ins systems. Had a look
at your site - how you had the patience to effectively reverse engineer
that computer down to logic analyser / hardware level is quite impressive.
Renaissance man would have approved :-). In the end, all this sort of
project is long term and have been collecting bits for the FE541 for 8-10
years. Even now, have only a rather tatty gyro platform and weapons aiming
computer, but things like the special power supply are essential to even
get the platform spun up, as the gyros run on ~350 Hz, not the standard 400.
I guess you must have seen the Simon Lavington book, Moving Targets ?.
Essential reading if you are interested in old Elliott technology.
I'll send you a email later so that we have points of contact offlist...
Regards,
Chris
Hi Erik,
Have been trying to make some free time to have a closer look at the
unit and start doing some digging for info, but coincidentally, a member
of another forum that I mentioned this unit on has been in touch in the
last couple of days and may be able to help. If I were superstitous, I
might think this was the result of some mysterious confluence of forces.
It's been months since I posted here and in the other forum and then 2
messages almost at once. Time to grasp the nettle, I think.
The other forum is the "Secret Projects Forum", which has loads of
interesting info on old avionics and more. Suggest you have a look. Have
written a long reply to the pm, so hope I don't frighten him off.
He has worked on just about all the Ferranti ins systems. Had a look
at your site - how you had the patience to effectively reverse engineer
that computer down to logic analyser / hardware level is quite impressive.
Renaissance man would have approved :-). In the end, all this sort of
project is long term and have been collecting bits for the FE541 for 8-10
years. Even now, have only a rather tatty gyro platform and weapons aiming
computer, but things like the special power supply are essential to even
get the platform spun up, as the gyros run on ~350 Hz, not the standard 400.
I guess you must have seen the Simon Lavington book, Moving Targets ?.
Essential reading if you are interested in old Elliott technology.
I'll send you a email later so that we have points of contact offlist...
Regards,
Chris
Thread Starter
tecumseh, #23
I thought the Plessey Mk4 series were quite good connector for their time,
solder or not. The main problem, afaics, with the early connectors, was
inadequate strain relief at the cable clamp dept, thereby flexing the wire
terminations. Think back to the even earlier Breeze connectors, where
all the pins could be sheared off if you forgot to undo the clamp ring, or
it siezed up :-(.
The main problem with the Mk4 was the shell threads, which needed ms4 to
stop siezing, but still a pretty competent design for the late 50's...
Regards,
Chris
I thought the Plessey Mk4 series were quite good connector for their time,
solder or not. The main problem, afaics, with the early connectors, was
inadequate strain relief at the cable clamp dept, thereby flexing the wire
terminations. Think back to the even earlier Breeze connectors, where
all the pins could be sheared off if you forgot to undo the clamp ring, or
it siezed up :-(.
The main problem with the Mk4 was the shell threads, which needed ms4 to
stop siezing, but still a pretty competent design for the late 50's...
Regards,
Chris
Nothing wrong with soldering the Plessey Mk4 as in those days we were taught how to solder. A quick resoldering job was much easier than a cable change especially when it was end to end on a Vulcan. MS4 was required to stop seizing but the other advantage with the Mk4 was that you could alter the keyway to suite so you only needed a few NSNs in your "black book".
When the Mk9 came along the keyway was fixed and each pin and keyway config had its own number, lots more numbers and cost.
When the Mk9 came along the keyway was fixed and each pin and keyway config had its own number, lots more numbers and cost.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Munich/Gemany
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Highly appreciated...
Hi Chris,
any off list discussion is highly welcome. Of course I know Mr. Lavington's book
and the author as I supplied a picture (page 589) and had the chapter on the
900 series machines (appendix, 579-594) for proof reading... This book
is an extremely valuable resource for all kind of Elliott/GEC/Marconi related
information!
You are absolutely right, such kind of restoration projects are very long term
projects and often only luck helps out. In case of our FIN101x it was extreme
luck to get hands on the test set...
Erik.
any off list discussion is highly welcome. Of course I know Mr. Lavington's book
and the author as I supplied a picture (page 589) and had the chapter on the
900 series machines (appendix, 579-594) for proof reading... This book
is an extremely valuable resource for all kind of Elliott/GEC/Marconi related
information!
You are absolutely right, such kind of restoration projects are very long term
projects and often only luck helps out. In case of our FIN101x it was extreme
luck to get hands on the test set...
Erik.
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Helston
Age: 51
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Publications
RNAS Culdrose Technical Library might still have an old dusty Air Publication (AP) left over from the Searchwater Workshop when 849 were flying AEW Mk2
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Munich/Gemany
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FIN1010 up and running...
Hi Chris,
some years passed by now - did you have a closer look at your Ferranti
INS or did you even play around with it?
Together with two colleagues we have spent some time into revitalizing
the FIN1010s. The result can be seen in a video I revcently loaded up
to YouTube showing and explaining details:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8
We not olny have a FIN up and running, we also built a logger to write
online data together with a GPS track onto a flash cards. This also
broadcasts the data via bluetooth allowing an ordinary tablet PC to
act as online map display. Additionally I built an interface to control
one of the original vintage moving map displays from Tornado based on
35mm film.
Erik.
some years passed by now - did you have a closer look at your Ferranti
INS or did you even play around with it?
Together with two colleagues we have spent some time into revitalizing
the FIN1010s. The result can be seen in a video I revcently loaded up
to YouTube showing and explaining details:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8
We not olny have a FIN up and running, we also built a logger to write
online data together with a GPS track onto a flash cards. This also
broadcasts the data via bluetooth allowing an ordinary tablet PC to
act as online map display. Additionally I built an interface to control
one of the original vintage moving map displays from Tornado based on
35mm film.
Erik.
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Dalgety Bay
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Part no 3862/....
Hi. It's a long time since this thread was active however I worked at Ferranti, Silverknowes for many years, right back to the original INAS used on the earliest Harriers.
In production, we used top level part numbers rather than FIN numbers. The early Harriers had an IN part no 3854/00001. The Tornado IN was 3854/36003. Nimrod was 3854/37003 and later Harrier was 38001 (I think). Jaguar was 3854/42003, or maybe 42001. These all had many interchangeable parts. There was a production and parts vontract for a Japanese aircraft. This was quote a bit different. Most of it's parts were prefixed 3862/....
There was a small group who made specials for tests and trials. Given the part number in your pictures, maybe it's based on the Japan product.
In production, we used top level part numbers rather than FIN numbers. The early Harriers had an IN part no 3854/00001. The Tornado IN was 3854/36003. Nimrod was 3854/37003 and later Harrier was 38001 (I think). Jaguar was 3854/42003, or maybe 42001. These all had many interchangeable parts. There was a production and parts vontract for a Japanese aircraft. This was quote a bit different. Most of it's parts were prefixed 3862/....
There was a small group who made specials for tests and trials. Given the part number in your pictures, maybe it's based on the Japan product.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Munich/Gemany
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest results - assembly of platform - part numbers
Hi and thanks for your posting! Yes, I am aware, that there are
many remakes of this navigation system. I am pretty sure, that
the 3854/36... units are from the German Tornados as we got these
from a big sale of the German air forces. The 3854/37... may be
from the UK ADV's or Gr.1s or even from Nimrod. These two types
I discovered have got minor differences in electronics and
major ones in the auto calibration procedures in software. I
have never seen a Japanese one but of course I know that "the
internet" mentions usage of a Ferranti unit in the Mitsubishi F-1.
Since this thread was active, many things happened and apart from
connecting the RPMD as shown in the YouTube video I have got an
attitude indicator connected now and I showed the FIN1010 with
RPMD, logger and ADI in working condition on the vintage computer
festival in Munich this year:
Vintage Computing / Avionics / Programmer Electronic Control
The system survived the 7 live demos and I got lot of positive
feddback on the demos and the talk I gave on the festival.
I also repaired some units (two FIN1012 I have got) and one of a
friend, but I am still keen on getting in touch with people with
know how from the good old days - so many thanks for responding!
I am very keen on collecting all information on these units and I still
do not have got any knowledge, how the platform was assembled and
especially how the values of the components on the platform trimmer
PCB have been determined during production. So e.g. in replacing a gyroscope,
there must have been (a) a mechanical alignment procedure as the gyro
can be rotated to adjust the input axis and (b) some jig must have
been used to subject the the azimuth cluster (or the whole platform?)
to movements recording the outputs and probably a computer (that type?)
calculated the values for the trim components afterwards?
In August I am visiting the UK and I hope I can visit the APSS close
to Edinburgh to see what remained from the Ferranti developments and
as far as I know, the original building has been destroyed sine than:
Activities/Projects.............................................
Links to talk and poster with some pictures and information I collected
over the years; sorry, but only German language:
http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputer...e-20170429.pdf
http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputer...e-20170420.pdf
Best regards and have a nice weekend,
Erik.
P.S. You can always get in touch at my private email erik -at- baigar.de
many remakes of this navigation system. I am pretty sure, that
the 3854/36... units are from the German Tornados as we got these
from a big sale of the German air forces. The 3854/37... may be
from the UK ADV's or Gr.1s or even from Nimrod. These two types
I discovered have got minor differences in electronics and
major ones in the auto calibration procedures in software. I
have never seen a Japanese one but of course I know that "the
internet" mentions usage of a Ferranti unit in the Mitsubishi F-1.
Since this thread was active, many things happened and apart from
connecting the RPMD as shown in the YouTube video I have got an
attitude indicator connected now and I showed the FIN1010 with
RPMD, logger and ADI in working condition on the vintage computer
festival in Munich this year:
Vintage Computing / Avionics / Programmer Electronic Control
The system survived the 7 live demos and I got lot of positive
feddback on the demos and the talk I gave on the festival.
I also repaired some units (two FIN1012 I have got) and one of a
friend, but I am still keen on getting in touch with people with
know how from the good old days - so many thanks for responding!
I am very keen on collecting all information on these units and I still
do not have got any knowledge, how the platform was assembled and
especially how the values of the components on the platform trimmer
PCB have been determined during production. So e.g. in replacing a gyroscope,
there must have been (a) a mechanical alignment procedure as the gyro
can be rotated to adjust the input axis and (b) some jig must have
been used to subject the the azimuth cluster (or the whole platform?)
to movements recording the outputs and probably a computer (that type?)
calculated the values for the trim components afterwards?
In August I am visiting the UK and I hope I can visit the APSS close
to Edinburgh to see what remained from the Ferranti developments and
as far as I know, the original building has been destroyed sine than:
Activities/Projects.............................................
Links to talk and poster with some pictures and information I collected
over the years; sorry, but only German language:
http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputer...e-20170429.pdf
http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputer...e-20170420.pdf
Best regards and have a nice weekend,
Erik.
P.S. You can always get in touch at my private email erik -at- baigar.de
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Missouri
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform.
Click the bottom right picture for the videos.
Jon
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Munich/Gemany
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LN-3, Vulcan, Blue Steel INS
She also has a video of her picking up a running Litton INS and putting it through a gimbal lock.
Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform.
Click the bottom right picture for the videos.
Jon
Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform.
Click the bottom right picture for the videos.
Jon
nevertheless the Vulcan's navigation system was quite outstanding and there is a interesting
video on inertial navigation for blue steel and Vulcan on the Rocheser Avionics Archive's web
pages:
Elliott Inertial Navigation System for Blue Steel (principles & manufacture) :: Rochester Avionic Archives
