Early Ferranti Ins System
Thread Starter
Early Ferranti Ins System
Hi,
Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask, but...
Have recently bought a Ferranti INS system at auction. From the pcb's inside,
it's a early example of a digital ins, but (without disturbing the sensor block),
uses mechanical gyros for sensing. The computer uses bit slice technology and
uses electronic synchro to digital conversion afaics, rather than the older
servo / resolver setup. The psu block had a fried tantalum cap, which i've
replaced and from tracing out the psu input connector, looks to be 28v dc power
only. No power applied as yet though.
The aim is to get this thing working and being self contained, should be a far
easier project than another project to get an early Harrier ins working, where i'm
still collecting the various units. Hendon will be able to help, but no good
unless I can identify which a/c it was fitted, The small outline suggests
helicopter, but have no idea really. Built by Ferranti as part of GEC, around
the late 70's / early 1980's.
Images:
Ferranti_Ins pictures by NikonFtn - Photobucket
Anyone in the group have any idea what this was fitted to ?. There's no RAF
stores reference number, just the type number and nato stock code, so may not be
RAF kit anyway. The "SS9" painted on the ident label (and on the connector end
of the case) may trigger some memories though...
Regards,
Chris
Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask, but...
Have recently bought a Ferranti INS system at auction. From the pcb's inside,
it's a early example of a digital ins, but (without disturbing the sensor block),
uses mechanical gyros for sensing. The computer uses bit slice technology and
uses electronic synchro to digital conversion afaics, rather than the older
servo / resolver setup. The psu block had a fried tantalum cap, which i've
replaced and from tracing out the psu input connector, looks to be 28v dc power
only. No power applied as yet though.
The aim is to get this thing working and being self contained, should be a far
easier project than another project to get an early Harrier ins working, where i'm
still collecting the various units. Hendon will be able to help, but no good
unless I can identify which a/c it was fitted, The small outline suggests
helicopter, but have no idea really. Built by Ferranti as part of GEC, around
the late 70's / early 1980's.
Images:
Ferranti_Ins pictures by NikonFtn - Photobucket
Anyone in the group have any idea what this was fitted to ?. There's no RAF
stores reference number, just the type number and nato stock code, so may not be
RAF kit anyway. The "SS9" painted on the ident label (and on the connector end
of the case) may trigger some memories though...
Regards,
Chris
Gravelbelly will know more, but the GEC/Ferranti name suggests late 80s
The label on one photo says 1998 which is probably a repair date. Guess - "FRE/R/03/98" = Ferranti.Repair.March 98 which is similar to Industry and MoD.
The 4digit/5digit part number convention indicates GEC/Ferranti Radar in Edinburgh, perhaps Crewe Toll.
Tempted to say FIN1110 (Ferranti Inertial Navigation 1110), which was fitted to Sea King AEW Mk2. FIN1110 was endorsed by the Admiralty Board in 1986, so give a year or so to deliver.
By convention, Serial Nos started at 101, so this was an early model.
The label on one photo says 1998 which is probably a repair date. Guess - "FRE/R/03/98" = Ferranti.Repair.March 98 which is similar to Industry and MoD.
The 4digit/5digit part number convention indicates GEC/Ferranti Radar in Edinburgh, perhaps Crewe Toll.
Tempted to say FIN1110 (Ferranti Inertial Navigation 1110), which was fitted to Sea King AEW Mk2. FIN1110 was endorsed by the Admiralty Board in 1986, so give a year or so to deliver.
By convention, Serial Nos started at 101, so this was an early model.
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No idea of the accuracy, but putting the NSN into google gives three hits, the last of which is Detail summary
It returns
5841-99-799-8326 INERTIAL NAVIGATION 04/25/1991
11A1/152820 THORN E M I ELECTRONICS LTD
FIN 1110 SELEX GALILEO LTD
It returns
5841-99-799-8326 INERTIAL NAVIGATION 04/25/1991
11A1/152820 THORN E M I ELECTRONICS LTD
FIN 1110 SELEX GALILEO LTD
That would confirm FIN1110.
11A1/152820 THORN E M I ELECTRONICS LTD
This is a typical Searchwater Radar part number. FIN1110 for Sea King AEW Mk2 was bought as part of a radar upgrade, along with an Autotrack Computer upgrade, because it was required to allow the radar to hold the horizon better. It isn't a contradiction to have an original Ferranti part no, and then be allocated a Searchwater one (Thorn-EMI at Hayes, Middlesex).
The SELEX GALILEO LTD bit is a far newer name, arising from various sell offs.
Thread Starter
Ferranti Ins
Thanks very much for the replies. Plugged FIN1110 into google and one result
was a Flight Global reference to an ad for the unit, where the pic looks just
like it. Doppler integration is also mentioned and there is a board in the
unit marked doppler, so I guess that confirms it. That sort of inertial mixing
is standard stuff now, but must have been bleeding edge at the time. It's
quite sad that the uk aviation industry, teeming with life in the 1960's, has
now been reduced to a pale shadow of it's former self.
Flight Global ref is third item down, search "Ferranti FIN1110"
All I need now is a manual, or at least the connector pinouts, though the control
head probably uses an (unknown) serial protocol, which complicates things. The ad
suggests that it may have been sold into civil markets, which may make it easier
to get info if it's < 30 years old. Any other comments from the group appreciated
as well.
Again, Thanks, another step on the way...
Regards,
Chris
was a Flight Global reference to an ad for the unit, where the pic looks just
like it. Doppler integration is also mentioned and there is a board in the
unit marked doppler, so I guess that confirms it. That sort of inertial mixing
is standard stuff now, but must have been bleeding edge at the time. It's
quite sad that the uk aviation industry, teeming with life in the 1960's, has
now been reduced to a pale shadow of it's former self.
Flight Global ref is third item down, search "Ferranti FIN1110"
All I need now is a manual, or at least the connector pinouts, though the control
head probably uses an (unknown) serial protocol, which complicates things. The ad
suggests that it may have been sold into civil markets, which may make it easier
to get info if it's < 30 years old. Any other comments from the group appreciated
as well.
Again, Thanks, another step on the way...
Regards,
Chris
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If only my Old Man was still around - he was on the team which designed it; amongst other INS, COMED, HUD and HDD systems which found their way into Harrier, Jag, Tornado, F18, Mig21, A4 Skyhawk, to name just a few destinations for the gizmos which flew out of Ferranti's Silverknowes and GEC Marconi's South Gyle plants in Edinburgh. (Plus a rather dinky moving map display that wound up in a silver Aston Martin DB5
).
Good luck getting it up and running.
).Good luck getting it up and running.
1771,
Small correction to that, the FIN 1012 was not in the Nimrod MR 1.
I can't remember the exact model (I think it was an Elliot but it was 32 years ago I last operated in the MR 1) and it was derived from the Blue Steel missile INU.
One quirk was that the final alignment was carried out on the Take off run where the system was selected to Run Align with the true heading of the runway entered and it measured its heading over the first 2000ft of the roll, corrected and then went into Nav.
Did cause problems on CT at light weights (the MR1 was lighter then the MR2)
Cheers
Small correction to that, the FIN 1012 was not in the Nimrod MR 1.
I can't remember the exact model (I think it was an Elliot but it was 32 years ago I last operated in the MR 1) and it was derived from the Blue Steel missile INU.
One quirk was that the final alignment was carried out on the Take off run where the system was selected to Run Align with the true heading of the runway entered and it measured its heading over the first 2000ft of the roll, corrected and then went into Nav.
Did cause problems on CT at light weights (the MR1 was lighter then the MR2)
Cheers
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You say the nicest things 
It's somewhat dated - I can remember being given one with a cutaway, so that we could drive it through a demo for the 1985?/86? Paris and Farnborough airshows (I was sponsored through University by Ferranti's Navigation Systems Division, but on graduation ended up in Radar Systems Division).
Silverknowes (where they were designed and built) is now long demolished, along with all of the other Ferranti sites in Edinburgh. All that's left is the Crewe Toll site, all shiny and modern apart from the old Lab Block main staircase that was Grade-1 listed. In my eleven years at Crewe Toll, we went through four name changes; Ferranti, Ferranti International Signal, GEC-Ferranti, GEC-Marconi Avionics, BAE Systems. I left before the Selex thing happened.
You should write to Selex Galileo at Crewe Toll; if there's anything, it will be there.
It's somewhat dated - I can remember being given one with a cutaway, so that we could drive it through a demo for the 1985?/86? Paris and Farnborough airshows (I was sponsored through University by Ferranti's Navigation Systems Division, but on graduation ended up in Radar Systems Division).
Silverknowes (where they were designed and built) is now long demolished, along with all of the other Ferranti sites in Edinburgh. All that's left is the Crewe Toll site, all shiny and modern apart from the old Lab Block main staircase that was Grade-1 listed. In my eleven years at Crewe Toll, we went through four name changes; Ferranti, Ferranti International Signal, GEC-Ferranti, GEC-Marconi Avionics, BAE Systems. I left before the Selex thing happened.
You should write to Selex Galileo at Crewe Toll; if there's anything, it will be there.
Last edited by Gravelbelly; 7th May 2012 at 12:47.
I seem to remember that the MR 1 inertial was called the E3 heading reference system - possibly a GEC item
YS
Thread Starter
I think one of the early Elliott ins used an inside out gymbal system,
to save space, whereas most of the ins of the time use gymbal assemblies
one inside another to the required degrees of freedom. Have only seen a
pic of this, never one in the flesh unfortunately. Methinks a trip
(or pilgrimage ?) to Rochester might be in order..
Elliotts were a very innovative company that and that sort of solution
was typical of their prowess, which included the dual reflector cassegrain radar
antenna, originally designed in the 50's as a compact antenna for missile use.
Have just been reading Simon Lavington's "Moving Targets" book which
describes all this, as well as the patent infringement legal battles against
us interests. Book not exactly cheap, but found a discounted copy on the ABE
books site. A lot of material on commercial developments, but there's a thread
running all the way through, starting with analog computer Naval gunnery
fire control tables, to work for gchq, to TSR2, Concorde and beyond. A
fascinating read and a must have for anyone interested in the history of
computing and avionics in the uk...
Regards,
Chris
to save space, whereas most of the ins of the time use gymbal assemblies
one inside another to the required degrees of freedom. Have only seen a
pic of this, never one in the flesh unfortunately. Methinks a trip
(or pilgrimage ?) to Rochester might be in order..
Elliotts were a very innovative company that and that sort of solution
was typical of their prowess, which included the dual reflector cassegrain radar
antenna, originally designed in the 50's as a compact antenna for missile use.
Have just been reading Simon Lavington's "Moving Targets" book which
describes all this, as well as the patent infringement legal battles against
us interests. Book not exactly cheap, but found a discounted copy on the ABE
books site. A lot of material on commercial developments, but there's a thread
running all the way through, starting with analog computer Naval gunnery
fire control tables, to work for gchq, to TSR2, Concorde and beyond. A
fascinating read and a must have for anyone interested in the history of
computing and avionics in the uk...
Regards,
Chris
Thread Starter
Gravelbelly,
Thanks for the info. One of the ways i've handled this in the past was to use the a/c electrical schematic as a way to identify which boxes were connected to what. It's
easy for older a/c like the Lightning or Vulcan, where all the info is in the public domain now, but more difficult with more modern kit, which may still be covered by the 30 year rule. Hendon were quite helpfull with some AP copies with regard to the early Harrier FE541 ins, so will probably drop them a line. Selex Galileo may be abe able to help, but have been put off in the past by thoughts of the man at the other end thinking stuff like "not another bl**dy anorak enthusiast" :-). Will give them a call anyway and ask to speak to their library, or try to find out who to speak to...
Regards,
Chris
Thanks for the info. One of the ways i've handled this in the past was to use the a/c electrical schematic as a way to identify which boxes were connected to what. It's
easy for older a/c like the Lightning or Vulcan, where all the info is in the public domain now, but more difficult with more modern kit, which may still be covered by the 30 year rule. Hendon were quite helpfull with some AP copies with regard to the early Harrier FE541 ins, so will probably drop them a line. Selex Galileo may be abe able to help, but have been put off in the past by thoughts of the man at the other end thinking stuff like "not another bl**dy anorak enthusiast" :-). Will give them a call anyway and ask to speak to their library, or try to find out who to speak to...
Regards,
Chris
put off in the past by thoughts of the man at the other end thinking stuff like "not another bl**dy anorak enthusiast"
Don't be put off. You will find old Ferranti hands at Crewe Toll are (rightly) immensely proud of the superb kit that came from their company.
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A bit of a long shot but AFAIK my Ma' still exchanges Xmas cards with a few of the old crowd from the Ferranti Displays Division at Silverknowes. If you get really stuck, PM me and I'll try to get you a contact; but as others suggest Crewe Toll would be a good place to start.
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Searchwater INAS
I flew a Viscount at RAE Bedford.Radar Research Squadron, in the 79/83 era which had a Searchwater radar attached, Google XT 575
We were part of the development team for the radar which was to go in the Nimrod and was hastily fitted under a sea king when the Falklands got tricky
I think the radar had an inertial for comparison purposes, We once saw Wolf Rock doing 20Knots
The aircraft was scrapped some years ago and the components no doubt reached the market, they will have been seriously non standard
We were part of the development team for the radar which was to go in the Nimrod and was hastily fitted under a sea king when the Falklands got tricky
I think the radar had an inertial for comparison purposes, We once saw Wolf Rock doing 20Knots
The aircraft was scrapped some years ago and the components no doubt reached the market, they will have been seriously non standard
Last edited by Tinribs; 9th May 2012 at 17:16.
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Vintage Ferranti FIN1010-FIN1012 differences?
Hi syseng68k, Dear experts,
just discovered this interesting thread! Did anyone successfully
get in touch with someone at Crewe Toll?
Together with a friend we are working as a hobby on similar Ferranti
units (FIN1010 and FIN1012), which we obtained via Liquibiz (FIN1012
from UK Tornado upgrade) and VEBEG (FIN1010 produced for Germany).
In 2011 we have been extremely lucky to get hands on the original
FIN1010 test set from Ferranti (again via VEBEG). During the
last weeks we have been able to restore the test set and gained
some understanding of the unit and the digital protocol it
transmits. We even have got been able to start up a FIN1010
into NAV mode which made us happy (I think I should say "hyper-
extremely happy").
Unfortunately the 1012s seem to be somewhat different from the
1010 and the test set is only able to communicate to the 1010. So
the question is, whether anyone here knows the difference between
1010 and 1012 - mechanically they look the same, only software (i.e.
PCB containing ROMs) is different at a first glance. The guess is,
that the 1010 is the early version and the 1012 incorporates some
improvements and may have been used in a dual-INU-configuration
(e.g. on the internet a page says that Nimrod AEW used two FIN1012s).
Thus the suspicion is, that the added features cause incompatibility
with our test set...
Any hints are highly welcome,
best regards,
Erik, [email protected]
just discovered this interesting thread! Did anyone successfully
get in touch with someone at Crewe Toll?
Together with a friend we are working as a hobby on similar Ferranti
units (FIN1010 and FIN1012), which we obtained via Liquibiz (FIN1012
from UK Tornado upgrade) and VEBEG (FIN1010 produced for Germany).
In 2011 we have been extremely lucky to get hands on the original
FIN1010 test set from Ferranti (again via VEBEG). During the
last weeks we have been able to restore the test set and gained
some understanding of the unit and the digital protocol it
transmits. We even have got been able to start up a FIN1010
into NAV mode which made us happy (I think I should say "hyper-
extremely happy").
Unfortunately the 1012s seem to be somewhat different from the
1010 and the test set is only able to communicate to the 1010. So
the question is, whether anyone here knows the difference between
1010 and 1012 - mechanically they look the same, only software (i.e.
PCB containing ROMs) is different at a first glance. The guess is,
that the 1010 is the early version and the 1012 incorporates some
improvements and may have been used in a dual-INU-configuration
(e.g. on the internet a page says that Nimrod AEW used two FIN1012s).
Thus the suspicion is, that the added features cause incompatibility
with our test set...
Any hints are highly welcome,
best regards,
Erik, [email protected]
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Baah. That's nothing. Try building one of these. 
Tatjana J. van Vark
Navigation and Bombing System NBS
(H2S Mk 9A, Navigation and Bombing Computer NBC)
used in V-bombers Victor, Vulcan and Valiant.
Tatjana J. van Vark
Navigation and Bombing System NBS
(H2S Mk 9A, Navigation and Bombing Computer NBC)
used in V-bombers Victor, Vulcan and Valiant.