Spitting on a Soldier's Grave
I know that Mr Shatter is Jewish, I believe he is the first ever Jew to be an Irish government minister.
they seem irrelevant when considering the fate of the Jews attempting to escape Nazi oppression in the 1930's. There seems little doubt that Ireland's refusal to offer asylum to Jews at this time was in no small way influenced by the Catholic Church, whose attitude to the Jews in those days can at best be described as ambivalent.
With reference to the MS St Louis, it should be noted that the United Kingdom accepted 288 of the 930 refugees who returned to Europe after its abortive trip to Cuba, the USA and Canada. I am not aware that Ireland took any in.
In 1937 The Irish Constitution gave constitutional protection members of the Jewish faith along with other religions...........
In 1948 DeValera over ruled his own Dept of Justice to allow in Jewish children and again in 52.
Monsignor O'Flaherty of The Scarlet Pimpernel movie worked extensively with Irish Foreign Minister to the Vatican in Rome to provide diplomatic protection to thousands of Jews in Rome acting under Irish Govt orders.
I think we are going to have to agree to differ over this one Racedo. Your points taken one by one are certainly factually correct (and I stand corrected over earlier Jewish ministers) but I think it is all a matter of perspective. From my own point of view I think that whereas the country of my forefathers has often been able to claim the moral high ground, in this matter, as in the matter of the treatment of deserters it has much to answer for
I think we are going to have to agree to differ over this one Racedo. Your points taken one by one are certainly factually correct (and I stand corrected over earlier Jewish ministers) but I think it is all a matter of perspective. From my own point of view I think that whereas the country of my forefathers has often been able to claim the moral high ground, in this matter, as in the matter of the treatment of deserters it has much to answer for
Ultimately a nation will treat a deserter in what ever way it sees fit if that deserter has left their army and joined a foreign power.
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A pardon for those men has just been announced:
Pardon for soldiers who deserted for allies in WWII - RT News
A good resolution to the issue. Symbolic yes but important. I believe one of my uncles appears on the famous list.
Pardon for soldiers who deserted for allies in WWII - RT News
The Government is to pardon over 4,500 former soldiers who deserted the Defence Forces during World War II to fight with the Allied Forces.
Minister for Defence Alan Shatter told the Dáil that the Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.
He said the Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory.
Minister for Defence Alan Shatter told the Dáil that the Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.
He said the Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory.
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I welcome this further sign of the maturity & forward progress of the Irish people and their government.
This, together with the huge success of HMQ's visit to Ireland last year, bodes well for the future of all of the peoples of these islands which we call home.
HB
This, together with the huge success of HMQ's visit to Ireland last year, bodes well for the future of all of the peoples of these islands which we call home.
HB
Gentleman Aviator
But why did the London Olympic torch get to Croke Park
...and carried by Jedward
an integration/reparation too far methinks
...and carried by Jedward
an integration/reparation too far methinks
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This was clearly a gesture of conciliation by Ireland in order to soothe the pain caused to England when Ireland famously beat them during the 6 Nations Rugby at Croke Park a few years ago.
Over it yet, are you boys?
HB
Over it yet, are you boys?
HB
Well they finally did it - but what took them so long? I wonder how many died in the period between the decision being made and the pardon being made law?
BBC News - WWII Irish 'deserters' granted pardons
What's that saying about justice delayed is justice denied?
BBC News - WWII Irish 'deserters' granted pardons
What's that saying about justice delayed is justice denied?
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It's easy to criticise almost any country, state, nation, religion or cultural group, but we're not all perfect.
I think that we Brits, in the past, have been guilty of some serious crimes against large numbers of defenceless, innocent people.
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Rgds SOS
I think that we Brits, in the past, have been guilty of some serious crimes against large numbers of defenceless, innocent people.
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Rgds SOS
I'm sorry SOSL, I don't agree. I am of mixed English Irish heritage and therefore I feel I have a foot in both camps. All of my life I feel that the United Kingdom has has a veritable hail of stones cast at it from the other side of the Irish Sea, some justified, some not. I think there is a general sense in this country now that historically the Irish people were badly treated by the British government, both before and after the Union, but those historical wrongs did not justify the De Valera government from treating its own citizens in the way that it did.
We are now in a period when relations between our two countries have probably never been better, and I celebrate that fact. All the more reason for the Irish government to act as it has done to overturn the injustice done to its citizens for fighting alongside "the Brits". All I'm saying is when you consider the ages of those survivors who were so shabbily treated by past Irish adminstrations, it's a pity the present one didnt get on with it once the decision was taken.
Still, better late than never, so two cheers for the Dail!
We are now in a period when relations between our two countries have probably never been better, and I celebrate that fact. All the more reason for the Irish government to act as it has done to overturn the injustice done to its citizens for fighting alongside "the Brits". All I'm saying is when you consider the ages of those survivors who were so shabbily treated by past Irish adminstrations, it's a pity the present one didnt get on with it once the decision was taken.
Still, better late than never, so two cheers for the Dail!
TTN
Would you want or trust a deserter alongside you ?
There was no punishment for Irish citizens who fought with the Allies in WW2. There was punishment for Irish citizens who having gave an oath as a Free State soldier then deserted to a foreign army.
Would you want or trust a deserter alongside you ?
There was no punishment for Irish citizens who fought with the Allies in WW2. There was punishment for Irish citizens who having gave an oath as a Free State soldier then deserted to a foreign army.
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So, racedo,
What would you do with the Free French? Those individuals who refused to stand by the decision of their elected government to surrender to the Nazis and decided to cross the channel and continue the fight - sometimes against their own countrymen. Those men were deserters. Imagine having to stand next to such a person at the end of the war?
Duncs
What would you do with the Free French? Those individuals who refused to stand by the decision of their elected government to surrender to the Nazis and decided to cross the channel and continue the fight - sometimes against their own countrymen. Those men were deserters. Imagine having to stand next to such a person at the end of the war?
Duncs
Last edited by Duncan D'Sorderlee; 10th May 2013 at 08:15.
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TTN
I don't seem to have made my point clearly. I do agree with your last post TTN.
My criticism was aimed, not at the Irish Government, which deserves respect for pardoning these valiant people after all this time.
Rather at the few posters on this thread who have expressed somewhat "jingoistic" opinions suggesting that the UK, in some way, can claim the moral high ground over the Irish. In spite of our long and bloody history and, in the past, our greedy and oppressive treatment of many weaker peoples.
I acknowledge that we weren't the only ones - Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, Holland et al were all flagrant colonisers who exploited African, Middle Eastern, sub-continental asian and Far Eastern peoples and stole their natural resources.
Whew - got that off my chest!
Rgds SOS
P.S. My Dad's family are from Galway and my Mum's from Shetland. I was born in Shetland but when I joined up I was advised to "get rid of my accent". I worked at it and now I can't speak properly any more ( I sound English and when I go home they call me a sooth mooth).
My criticism was aimed, not at the Irish Government, which deserves respect for pardoning these valiant people after all this time.
Rather at the few posters on this thread who have expressed somewhat "jingoistic" opinions suggesting that the UK, in some way, can claim the moral high ground over the Irish. In spite of our long and bloody history and, in the past, our greedy and oppressive treatment of many weaker peoples.
I acknowledge that we weren't the only ones - Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, Holland et al were all flagrant colonisers who exploited African, Middle Eastern, sub-continental asian and Far Eastern peoples and stole their natural resources.
Whew - got that off my chest!
Rgds SOS
P.S. My Dad's family are from Galway and my Mum's from Shetland. I was born in Shetland but when I joined up I was advised to "get rid of my accent". I worked at it and now I can't speak properly any more ( I sound English and when I go home they call me a sooth mooth).
Last edited by SOSL; 10th May 2013 at 17:25. Reason: Title and PS
What would you do with the Free French? Those individuals who refused to stand by the decision of their elected government to surrender to the Nazis and decided to cross the channel and continue the fight - sometimes against their own countrymen. Those men were deserters. Imagine having to stand next to such a person at the end of the war?
But as French 3rd Republic ceased to exist, your country is occupied and Army was stood down then how can you desert something which has ceased to exist.