Puma Crash Sentence
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AA, from my point of view the good news is that the manufacturers built the cab so strongly that even though the accident killed 2 crew and seriously injured the third, it only killed one of the pax.
it will make people think twice before being reckless; or condoning it without question, in the future.
As long as there are Pilots...and helicopters....there's gonna be these kinds of tragedies!
If you are going out and do something silly....do it by yourself and not with a load of passengers who are not part of the scheme.
At least then if you kill yourself....someone is out just an aircraft and a knob....but no innocent bystanders.
SASless - agreed.
I can understand that in aircrew-only aircraft a culture like that could perhaps have been tolerated, but I'm still astounded that there could be such sloppy training in the RAF that any pilot could even dream of flying in such a disgraceful way with pax in the back.
I can understand that in aircrew-only aircraft a culture like that could perhaps have been tolerated, but I'm still astounded that there could be such sloppy training in the RAF that any pilot could even dream of flying in such a disgraceful way with pax in the back.
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There are so many failures in this chain with the crew just being the final one. As SASless said, these tragedies will happen, but by putting a very junior, inexperienced crew together on a det with self-auth is certainly not reducing the risk. So many things have been missed in the training and supervision that to simply try and allocate a large part of the most public blame on the one surviving crew member really is scapegoat tactics, and I do have a certain sympathy for Flt Lt Hamilton. I am not saying he is without blame, but perhaps he never should have been there in the first place. I do believe lessons have been learnt, and I would like to believe that his wouldn't happen again - but I don't.
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Horror Box: I agree with you in some ways in your argument
However a simple trooping task over a couple of days used to be bread and butter in my time on the Puma....and a way of LCR/new CR crews gaining experience and confidence. Maybe the defining difference is we had enough flying hours on the aircraft per month (vice simulator) to actually be good at handling it and ensuring we didn't get into such trouble.
I can't think of any crews who haven't let the horns come out now and then but the CVR tape sends chills down my spine every time I hear it.....I can't think anything the system would have done in auth checks would have made a difference, its like they had a death wish!
but by putting a very junior, inexperienced crew together on a det with self-auth is certainly not reducing the risk.
I can't think of any crews who haven't let the horns come out now and then but the CVR tape sends chills down my spine every time I hear it.....I can't think anything the system would have done in auth checks would have made a difference, its like they had a death wish!
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I could stomach a lot of the poor Bobby H and crew comments made here had it not been for the fact that some 30 secs prior to killing himself, his crewman and the pax; Dave Sale had a similar near miss clearly audible on the CVR. Yes we all have made mistakes, I most certainly have but to have carried on after that initial scare just puzzles me and can't really be claimed to be a mistake.
A very sad affair that has irrevocably damaged the reputation and standing of a fine force that I am proud to be a member of.
A very sad affair that has irrevocably damaged the reputation and standing of a fine force that I am proud to be a member of.
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I could stomach a lot of the poor Bobby H and crew comments made here had it not been for the fact that some 30 secs prior to killing himself, his crewman and the pax; Dave Sale had a similar near miss clearly audible on the CVR. Yes we all have made mistakes, I most certainly have but to have carried on after that initial scare just puzzles me and can't really be claimed to be a mistake.
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Tigermate, unfortunately this will not stop people being reckless, as by it's very nature, reckless behaviour is unlikely to be carried out with forethought. What this shows is that if you fly in the manner that this crew did, and murder innocent people in the process, you will get away with it. Suspended sentence - political speak for 'got away with it' I am afraid. A very very sad day for justice and makes the RAF a more dangerous place.
I don't think he 'got away with it'. Given the choice between 16 months in the slammer (reduced to 8 months or less with good behaviour) and the remaining 60-odd years of your life in a wheelchair, I'd take jail every time. The judge said as much in his sentencing. Don't forget also that the primary culprit lost his life - and that, surely, is far more of a deterrent to any copycat activity than any prison sentence could ever be?
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In the real World how easy is it for a very junior co-pilot to challenge the actions of the pilot in command?
I might be more sympathetic towards this young man, if they had been possibly more forceful with their comments during that flight. If they felt uncomfortable about speaking out then they should at the very least have insisted on correct radio procedure and ordered the whooping and hollering over the radio to stop. I would suggest that these comments were adding 'fuel to a raging fire'.
It is wrong to blame a service for the actions of an individual but from what I have read this was not the first time the flying 'style' of that pilot has been highlighted?
Sentencing the co-pilot to a term of imprisonment sends out a very clear message BUT ....
In theory it is easy to say the co-pilot should have spoken out, that is an easy thing to say but in the real world how does this work?
Aircraft tasked with mission to collect a group of soldiers in atrocious conditions, during the flight the co-pilot is not happy and suggests they should abort. The co-pilot is adamant they are right and makes a stance because they have been told they have the right to speak out!!
A pilot decides to pick up more soldiers that the rules allow, co-pilot points out his actions are in contravention of regulations and again digs his heels in.
Some pilots may well treat this as part of the learning curve for newly qualified personnel, but another officer might not feel so charitable??
Please note these are questions and certainly not statements. Mistakes happen and 'cowboys' get through the net, but when these cowboys break rules in such a way as they endanger lives then do we have a duty to speak out? My own thoughts are that it is possible that the system as it stands works perfectly, but only a fool believes the 'system' is perfect.
A terrible, terrible incident that has caused embarrassment for the RAF but more important, a life sentence of pain and suffering for the victims all because of the actions of one idiot.
'There but for the grace of God go I'. Is a statement I respect but seriously question... Yes I TOTALLY accept some of us take risks that see us break or perhaps ignore rules, but do we really endanger the lives of innocent young children\teenagers in the manner being discussed??? I very much doubt it. BUT..... I am certain some of us (me included) have given a finger to rules that prevent us from pushing ourselves to perform to the highest of levels? Carrying 16 passengers instead of four in total white out conditions!!
Respect to that man.
Can the RAF learn from this? You bet they can and before we all go apoplectic, I will very quickly add that every armed service MUST learn from this and ensure we all enforce those relevant rules that are already in place to stop this type of very sad incident from taking place.
I for one feel compassion for the co-pilot and wish him well, what has happened has happened and no prison sentence will alter that.
The pilot let himself down, he let the RAF down, he killed a valued crewman and took the life of a young Army recruit.... No sympathy, no compassion.
Apologies for the ramble
I might be more sympathetic towards this young man, if they had been possibly more forceful with their comments during that flight. If they felt uncomfortable about speaking out then they should at the very least have insisted on correct radio procedure and ordered the whooping and hollering over the radio to stop. I would suggest that these comments were adding 'fuel to a raging fire'.
It is wrong to blame a service for the actions of an individual but from what I have read this was not the first time the flying 'style' of that pilot has been highlighted?
Sentencing the co-pilot to a term of imprisonment sends out a very clear message BUT ....
In theory it is easy to say the co-pilot should have spoken out, that is an easy thing to say but in the real world how does this work?
Aircraft tasked with mission to collect a group of soldiers in atrocious conditions, during the flight the co-pilot is not happy and suggests they should abort. The co-pilot is adamant they are right and makes a stance because they have been told they have the right to speak out!!
A pilot decides to pick up more soldiers that the rules allow, co-pilot points out his actions are in contravention of regulations and again digs his heels in.
Some pilots may well treat this as part of the learning curve for newly qualified personnel, but another officer might not feel so charitable??
Please note these are questions and certainly not statements. Mistakes happen and 'cowboys' get through the net, but when these cowboys break rules in such a way as they endanger lives then do we have a duty to speak out? My own thoughts are that it is possible that the system as it stands works perfectly, but only a fool believes the 'system' is perfect.
A terrible, terrible incident that has caused embarrassment for the RAF but more important, a life sentence of pain and suffering for the victims all because of the actions of one idiot.
'There but for the grace of God go I'. Is a statement I respect but seriously question... Yes I TOTALLY accept some of us take risks that see us break or perhaps ignore rules, but do we really endanger the lives of innocent young children\teenagers in the manner being discussed??? I very much doubt it. BUT..... I am certain some of us (me included) have given a finger to rules that prevent us from pushing ourselves to perform to the highest of levels? Carrying 16 passengers instead of four in total white out conditions!!
Respect to that man.Can the RAF learn from this? You bet they can and before we all go apoplectic, I will very quickly add that every armed service MUST learn from this and ensure we all enforce those relevant rules that are already in place to stop this type of very sad incident from taking place.
I for one feel compassion for the co-pilot and wish him well, what has happened has happened and no prison sentence will alter that.
The pilot let himself down, he let the RAF down, he killed a valued crewman and took the life of a young Army recruit.... No sympathy, no compassion.
Apologies for the ramble
In theory it is easy to say the co-pilot should have spoken out, that is an easy thing to say but in the real world how does this work?
Only once* did I say, "I'm not comfortable with this, Skip." He stopped straight away. What he stopped doing was trying to fly down fire-breaks on Otterburn Range. He asked why, I told him: any brown job could have strung wire across from one tree to another. He accepted that. Now did he do the same with other crewmen afterward? Dunno. Did I get crap for it? Not that I am aware.
George Blackie may have told me to .... off, would probably have made cracks at my expense in the crewroom, maybe refused to fly with me again. Who knows. But I'm guessing he would have stopped too.
The Catterick guy had the CVR, and had he made a statement along the same line, he might have been exonerated.
CG
* I recall asking someone, " Are we auth'ed for this?" Same effect, but can't recall the circumstances.
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The Catterick guy had the CVR, and had he made a statement along the same line, he might have been exonerated.
AA I know the reference, I seem to recall it too. My post was not meant to be a hindsight special- rather a response to the, "Is it that easy to challenge the captain?" question raised earlier. I accept it's NOT easy. The board/court maybe felt that the 'Blackadder' style response was not enough.
CG
CG
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It's not but if you do not have the moral courage to do so then you are in the wrong job.
We're all fallible, but the team can save us (if only from ourselves), we have but to listen.
How many times, when you hear/see CRM Training do you think, those as believes in it are doing it anyway (before it had a plethora of fancy titles), and those that don't, aren't?
There is nothing new under the sun . . .
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I feel a certain degree of sympathy for the Co-pilot. The military system is not good at allowing people to criticise our 'seniors' and it is a brave man that stands up to one's captain.
It happens on the ground too. I worked for a complete t%ss$r on a Regt Sqn when I was a junior Off. That Sqn Cdr came into the ops room in the Falklands and demanded ammunition. He wanted to go down to Teal Inlet and shoot the seals that were taking his fish and spoiling his fly fishing. I should have told him that was illegal and refused. But I handed over the ammunition as I knew that if I didn't my life would be even worse.
Same boss bullied all his Jnr offrs - caddying for him when playing golf, making a Flt Cdr do 4 houly ammunition checks following a range practice the boss thought was ilegal (but was perfectly legal if you were qualified field firing) etc etc. But none of us stood up to him, even the 2i/c.
As I look back, I can see the system was not there to support the junior officer. I wonder if the same sort of issues arise in the flying world where individuals are just too afraid to speak up for fear of the consequences - senior people can screw you over in many ways that are 'legal'.
Anyway, I appreciate that people died and the crew should have spoken out, but feel sorry for the crew member who was left alive. Pity the pilot wasn't alive too to face the music.
It happens on the ground too. I worked for a complete t%ss$r on a Regt Sqn when I was a junior Off. That Sqn Cdr came into the ops room in the Falklands and demanded ammunition. He wanted to go down to Teal Inlet and shoot the seals that were taking his fish and spoiling his fly fishing. I should have told him that was illegal and refused. But I handed over the ammunition as I knew that if I didn't my life would be even worse.
Same boss bullied all his Jnr offrs - caddying for him when playing golf, making a Flt Cdr do 4 houly ammunition checks following a range practice the boss thought was ilegal (but was perfectly legal if you were qualified field firing) etc etc. But none of us stood up to him, even the 2i/c.
As I look back, I can see the system was not there to support the junior officer. I wonder if the same sort of issues arise in the flying world where individuals are just too afraid to speak up for fear of the consequences - senior people can screw you over in many ways that are 'legal'.
Anyway, I appreciate that people died and the crew should have spoken out, but feel sorry for the crew member who was left alive. Pity the pilot wasn't alive too to face the music.
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sideways. All this "he should have done this, that, the other" BS
He would have had no support from either his superiors or peers if he had spoken out, seen the same with an Engo [and his serving wife] being blackballed from the officers mess by a campaign led by a middle level Sqdn manager.
I do hope that things have been formalised these days, but I doubt it.
I'm not here to comment on the actions of that crew as I just don't know enough about the circumstances to comment - but I will speak out against anyone who announces that bad things always happen to those that speak out.
Back when I was a JO I walked in to a flt cdrs office and explained as reasonably as I could where I thought his flying was going. Well over a decade has gone past and he left the RAF a number of years ago but we are both still alive and still friends.
Speak out when you need to - you may even be thanked for it.
Back when I was a JO I walked in to a flt cdrs office and explained as reasonably as I could where I thought his flying was going. Well over a decade has gone past and he left the RAF a number of years ago but we are both still alive and still friends.
Speak out when you need to - you may even be thanked for it.