SARH
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Crab,
There is no black art in SAR, period. Any average to above average RN crew are perfectly capable of conducting SAR.
And as for your disparaging of the recent Lynx rescue...it is beneath contempt. The reason they succeeded is because it is an RN aviator's DNA to be able to rescue people in most circumstances - without the need to think they are "special". They operate in the harshest of conditions every time they deploy to sea. It is why the RN FAA will continue into the record books long after RAF SARF has been forgotten. i.e. Jan 1st 2016!
There is no black art in SAR, period. Any average to above average RN crew are perfectly capable of conducting SAR.
And as for your disparaging of the recent Lynx rescue...it is beneath contempt. The reason they succeeded is because it is an RN aviator's DNA to be able to rescue people in most circumstances - without the need to think they are "special". They operate in the harshest of conditions every time they deploy to sea. It is why the RN FAA will continue into the record books long after RAF SARF has been forgotten. i.e. Jan 1st 2016!
Interesting that this discussion seems to have developed into a p*#*ing contest that has focused on an ability to hover (or not, as the case may be) in a variety of scenarios. I think, as usual, too many people have missed a fairly major point regarding training in that there is no real discussion of the holistic elements of a SAR crew, for example the skill of the winchop (for it is indeed a skill that requires practice, practice and more practice), radar op (ditto) or winch man (paramedic in most RAF and RN Sea King crews).
So while I accept the regular SAR crews of the RAF, RN and Civvie units may well be able to do the job to a similar standard, the same can not be said of jungly/Lynx crews who, while the pilots may be able to hover, do not have dedicated, trained SAR rear crew. So you can have the best drivers in the world, but it's not a jot of good if your winch op can't winch operate and your winch man (who in the case of an embarked Lynx crew may well be a well intentioned but poorly trained engineer) kills or injures a casualty while lifting them from the scenario (hydrostatic shock anyone?)or is unable to discharge an appropriate level of medical care en-route.
That's why you need properly trained CREWS, not just pilots, in the SAR world. So the 771 scenario outlined previously where your new pilot pitches up and doesn't need any training and therefore you can 'do' SAR is, in fact, bol**x. What about the rest of the crew, where do they come from and who trains them?
Discuss........ And I'll retire to get my Kevlar ready for the incoming!
So while I accept the regular SAR crews of the RAF, RN and Civvie units may well be able to do the job to a similar standard, the same can not be said of jungly/Lynx crews who, while the pilots may be able to hover, do not have dedicated, trained SAR rear crew. So you can have the best drivers in the world, but it's not a jot of good if your winch op can't winch operate and your winch man (who in the case of an embarked Lynx crew may well be a well intentioned but poorly trained engineer) kills or injures a casualty while lifting them from the scenario (hydrostatic shock anyone?)or is unable to discharge an appropriate level of medical care en-route.
That's why you need properly trained CREWS, not just pilots, in the SAR world. So the 771 scenario outlined previously where your new pilot pitches up and doesn't need any training and therefore you can 'do' SAR is, in fact, bol**x. What about the rest of the crew, where do they come from and who trains them?
Discuss........ And I'll retire to get my Kevlar ready for the incoming!
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Crab,
Sorry but you are talking out of your Harris, argue your point but please stick to the facts, no rear crew
having been through the pain of the RAF exchange has ever transfered to the light blue.
All RN Jungly rear crew are trained in basic sar, they regularly practice boat transfers, cliffs and grappling "drums", in fact a very large percentage of this small branch have also completed tours on 771.
Get over yourselves, you will soon be competing for the same jobs and working together, there is a reason why the majority on the Valley 139 are Navy.
Sorry but you are talking out of your Harris, argue your point but please stick to the facts, no rear crew
having been through the pain of the RAF exchange has ever transfered to the light blue.
All RN Jungly rear crew are trained in basic sar, they regularly practice boat transfers, cliffs and grappling "drums", in fact a very large percentage of this small branch have also completed tours on 771.
Get over yourselves, you will soon be competing for the same jobs and working together, there is a reason why the majority on the Valley 139 are Navy.
no rear crew
having been through the pain of the RAF exchange has ever transfered to the light blue.
having been through the pain of the RAF exchange has ever transfered to the light blue.
there is a reason why the majority on the Valley 139 are Navy.
RN cabs with "non-professional" crew do SAR all over the world all the time.
SAR is not a black art but it contains a lot of skill sets, all of which are perishable through lack of practise - your assertion that flying mountains in Norway is the same as hovering in a downdraught at night trying to winch someone off a tiny ledge in Scotland or Wales just shows your poor level of understanding of SAR.
If one of your embarked assets spears in and a PLB homing (no 406 coverage) is the only way to find them, how will your embarked SAR crews do it? They don't know because they have never practised it as a single, let alone as a multiple beacon!
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Crab,
This is exactly the elitist mentality that turns off the big Rotary employers, good luck to you you in the future, I think the proof is in Civvy SAR crew numbers and which service they origionally came from. I hate to break this to you mate, you really are not that special!
That's the difference between us, we don't look at sar as a doctorate, it's simply a transferable skill set, it's not in your Genes!!
This is exactly the elitist mentality that turns off the big Rotary employers, good luck to you you in the future, I think the proof is in Civvy SAR crew numbers and which service they origionally came from. I hate to break this to you mate, you really are not that special!
That's the difference between us, we don't look at sar as a doctorate, it's simply a transferable skill set, it's not in your Genes!!
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Spotted this report re NVG on the BEEB. Media hype or a genuine concern? Would have been a factor in the final decison, Shirley?
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Crab
Are you under the impression that Scottish mountains have different physics than Norwegian ones?
Strangely, during my time at Gannet I found the motion of air and the effect of darkness on Scottish mountains to be strangly similar to their effect in Norway/France.
Hawksridge
Being serious for a moment, you are quite correct that generally it is down the back that the benefit of dedicated SAR sqns is apparent. These adquals such as paramedic trained etc do not really come into play that often as a percentage of jobs, but when they do they are, as you say, very important.
You are, however, unfairly disparaging about the "well intentioned but poorly trained engineer"
To some degree this can be offset by taking the ships doc/medic but I would agree that a medically trained person comfortable in the back of an aircraft can make all the difference in a very small percentage of cases.
As far as winch work, most of our guys are very good actually with the poossible exception of bagger observers, and lets be honest, if a bagger is rescuing you then things have gone horribly wrong.
I assume that you are joking about the "radar op" bit. An observer is in a different league when it come to radar work than a crewy with an adqual.
Realistically, the limitation on ships flight SAR is not usually the crew, but rather the platform. Lynx is a world beater in many ways, but it is not a happy night SAR platform.
Are you under the impression that Scottish mountains have different physics than Norwegian ones?
Strangely, during my time at Gannet I found the motion of air and the effect of darkness on Scottish mountains to be strangly similar to their effect in Norway/France.
Hawksridge
Being serious for a moment, you are quite correct that generally it is down the back that the benefit of dedicated SAR sqns is apparent. These adquals such as paramedic trained etc do not really come into play that often as a percentage of jobs, but when they do they are, as you say, very important.
You are, however, unfairly disparaging about the "well intentioned but poorly trained engineer"
To some degree this can be offset by taking the ships doc/medic but I would agree that a medically trained person comfortable in the back of an aircraft can make all the difference in a very small percentage of cases.
As far as winch work, most of our guys are very good actually with the poossible exception of bagger observers, and lets be honest, if a bagger is rescuing you then things have gone horribly wrong.
I assume that you are joking about the "radar op" bit. An observer is in a different league when it come to radar work than a crewy with an adqual.
Realistically, the limitation on ships flight SAR is not usually the crew, but rather the platform. Lynx is a world beater in many ways, but it is not a happy night SAR platform.
Having had some international experiance in winching, either people or big lumps of things I have found thet the standard of patter from ex RAF or ex RAAF crewman to be far higher then ex RN or RAN.
However they can take comfort from the fact they are a lot better than Chinese winchmen.
However they can take comfort from the fact they are a lot better than Chinese winchmen.
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Great thread this is turning out to be 
I am falling off my seat laughing with daily regularity.
The long and short of it is that military SAR as you know it is going, come 2016 you will all be looking for work. In the end there are some that will get employed and some wont.
Just remember that it is a very small industry (military or civilian) and no one is ever that anonymous.
(something about six degrees? - maybe more like three or less!)
Good luck in your futures, just be careful what you wish for
Most of all keep this thread going - it's hysterical 
ps
Will that be because "not everyone has the same 3 o'clock !"
I am falling off my seat laughing with daily regularity.
The long and short of it is that military SAR as you know it is going, come 2016 you will all be looking for work. In the end there are some that will get employed and some wont.
Just remember that it is a very small industry (military or civilian) and no one is ever that anonymous.
(something about six degrees? - maybe more like three or less!)Good luck in your futures, just be careful what you wish for
Most of all keep this thread going - it's hysterical ps
standard of patter from ex RAF / RAAF
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These adquals such as paramedic trained etc do not really come into play that often as a percentage of jobs, but when they do they are, as you say, very important.
To some degree this can be offset by taking the ships doc/medic but I would agree that a medically trained person comfortable in the back of an aircraft can make all the difference in a very small percentage of cases.
As far as winch work, most of our guys are very good actually with the poossible exception of bagger observers, and lets be honest, if a bagger is rescuing you then things have gone horribly wrong.
Realistically, the limitation on ships flight SAR is not usually the crew, but rather the platform. Lynx is a world beater in many ways, but it is not a happy night SAR platform.
If, as you point out, always having a Paramedic in the back, always having a fully trained guy on the switch and the wire and a day night capable platform this must offer a better all round capability than what could potentially be offered by an RN equivalent, your points not mine, then surely there is no contest here
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No, the RN equivalent in the UK has all the same adquals/kit etc as the RAF SAR.
The civvy replacement is and will be at least equivalent.
What I am saying is that the SAR provided by RN helicopters around the rest of the world is actually very professional and may be lacking in only certain areas, many of which can be mitigated. For example ships medics jumping in if required.
RN crews on small ships hold SAR every single night of the deployment (if servicable!)
To suggest that they are amateurs is just ignorant. Whilst the total number of jobs they do would be low compared to their UK based bretheren, you would find that as with everything embarked, the complexity was higher.
Embarked SAR does not get used for some climber with a hurty toe/winching of some prat off a cliff/bendy diver/incorrectly dressed climber/preggivac/RTA. We all know that these things make up 95% of the SAR shouts in the UK and require no special skills whatsoever.
Military SAR is not by any means dying with the end of the UK SAR responsibility. Just RAF SAR.
The Lynx is not great as a SAR aircraft, but the Merlin is in many ways superior to the SK for SAR.
The civvy replacement is and will be at least equivalent.
What I am saying is that the SAR provided by RN helicopters around the rest of the world is actually very professional and may be lacking in only certain areas, many of which can be mitigated. For example ships medics jumping in if required.
RN crews on small ships hold SAR every single night of the deployment (if servicable!)
To suggest that they are amateurs is just ignorant. Whilst the total number of jobs they do would be low compared to their UK based bretheren, you would find that as with everything embarked, the complexity was higher.
Embarked SAR does not get used for some climber with a hurty toe/winching of some prat off a cliff/bendy diver/incorrectly dressed climber/preggivac/RTA. We all know that these things make up 95% of the SAR shouts in the UK and require no special skills whatsoever.
Military SAR is not by any means dying with the end of the UK SAR responsibility. Just RAF SAR.
The Lynx is not great as a SAR aircraft, but the Merlin is in many ways superior to the SK for SAR.
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Crab,
You have maligned many people in your posts.
Having completed tours off back of ships and on a SAR Sqn I can assure you I learned no new skills in the transfer to the latter. Likewise the rear crew were the same types in both cases and were equally able in all scenarios. I have conducted long range SAROPS (without Nimrod top cover) in the middle of the Atlantic in Force 11 seas and been backwards up Ben Cruachan in a blizzard on more than one occasion - challenging definitely, special to an RN crew, most definitely not. I am afraid that some on the RAF SARF make out that it is special, it is not.
What makes it special for anyone that does SAR is the bravery of the crews to fly out in the harshest of conditions to save someone's life, I suspect that will not change for the RN and Civvies post 2016 (and the RAF SH crews on ops).
You have maligned many people in your posts.
Having completed tours off back of ships and on a SAR Sqn I can assure you I learned no new skills in the transfer to the latter. Likewise the rear crew were the same types in both cases and were equally able in all scenarios. I have conducted long range SAROPS (without Nimrod top cover) in the middle of the Atlantic in Force 11 seas and been backwards up Ben Cruachan in a blizzard on more than one occasion - challenging definitely, special to an RN crew, most definitely not. I am afraid that some on the RAF SARF make out that it is special, it is not.
What makes it special for anyone that does SAR is the bravery of the crews to fly out in the harshest of conditions to save someone's life, I suspect that will not change for the RN and Civvies post 2016 (and the RAF SH crews on ops).
Is that where you pick someone up in one coauntry and drop them in anuther?
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Funny that, I used to jump out of a helicopter into what turned out to be possibly maybe Chinese waters and hoisted back in.
Sea drills 28 Sqn, Ping Chau(sp?) 17th July 1992
Ah, those were the days.........
Sea drills 28 Sqn, Ping Chau(sp?) 17th July 1992
Ah, those were the days.........
I once 'rescued' a 660 Scout from 6 inches of water that had shut down for Sunday breakfast with the Ghurkas, just below the high water mark (can't remember which island, Lantau I think, put me right someone). Igniter problems if I remember rightly? 17 Sep '79 according to the log book. Had a shedload in their Clubhouse at the end of the shift courtesy the Major!!
But I wasn't SAR, GASP, just playing at it, unprofessionally I guess. Oh hold on a minute, I had done a few SARs from the old ARK; and had spent a whole week of a NATO ASW exercise at 40' in 40kt fog without even seeing the surface; and done a night stretcher casevac off the back of a diesel submarine in force 5/6 (and that, when night sub tx's were against the rules, but he lived).
Went on to 771NAS next tour; but that was Wessex 5's day SAR only. The night SAR in those days was done by 706NAS (Sea King Trg Sqn) which meant that all the crews were Beefers (front and back), not one first tourist in sight.
When 771 got Sea Kings, no one went 771NAS SAR(and MCT, lets not forget MCT) without at least two tours under their belt. No one went 819NAS Prestwick without at least one previous SK tour.
Tell me, someone, anyone, how many tours has William got under his belt?
But I wasn't SAR, GASP, just playing at it, unprofessionally I guess. Oh hold on a minute, I had done a few SARs from the old ARK; and had spent a whole week of a NATO ASW exercise at 40' in 40kt fog without even seeing the surface; and done a night stretcher casevac off the back of a diesel submarine in force 5/6 (and that, when night sub tx's were against the rules, but he lived).
Went on to 771NAS next tour; but that was Wessex 5's day SAR only. The night SAR in those days was done by 706NAS (Sea King Trg Sqn) which meant that all the crews were Beefers (front and back), not one first tourist in sight.
When 771 got Sea Kings, no one went 771NAS SAR(and MCT, lets not forget MCT) without at least two tours under their belt. No one went 819NAS Prestwick without at least one previous SK tour.
Tell me, someone, anyone, how many tours has William got under his belt?
He is on his first tour and, strangely enough, chose RAF SAR instead of RN SAR - 'nuff said methinks
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Crab, his missis chose RAF SAR because it meant she would see more of him,
Incidently are you still at EGDC, if so how come the current RN contingent has not battered you yet!
Incidently are you still at EGDC, if so how come the current RN contingent has not battered you yet!