SARH

[xenolith]

high spirits

and being the RN there's always one in drag!

[high spirits]

Xenolith,
Our powder is distinctly moist in the RAF. Witness the 'naked winchman' Sun newspaper story a few years back - although that was CH-47 I think.

[Tourist]

High Spirits

"Shame about the blokes in the 'budgie smuggling' speedos in the foreground.... "

Crabs - Nice enough chaps, but no sartorial elegance then or now.

[high spirits]

Tourist,
Doesn't 'sartorial' have something to do with tailoring?

You are not seriously suggesting they are tailored speedos - are you?

I think that we must agree to disagree.....but good pics of happier days nevertheless!!

[Vie sans frontieres]

Come off it Tourist. There's a world of difference between a well-trained SAR pilot and someone who's just finding his or her feet. Stop suggesting it's just hovering. You're denigrating some top notch pilots. Believe me, rearcrew notice the difference.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

No, the RN equivalent in the UK has all the same adquals/kit etc as the RAF SAR.

Well, apart from the Multi-Sensor System (FLIR and TV camera), Airwave and bigger fuel tanks.

[pasptoo]

Airwave is plug and play and as I understand fitted last month, FLiR has been inbound from SARF/MoD for the last three years awaiting imminent fit, so that just leaves the "bigger" fuel tanks? (an extra 600lbs?)

I think they could fit a full size tank in the sonar well, instead of the "C" shaped one at present.

So the RN and RAF have "similar" capabilities. No?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Originally Posted by pasptoo

Airwave is plug and play and as I understand fitted last month, FLiR has been inbound from SARF/MoD for the last three years awaiting imminent fit, so that just leaves the "bigger" fuel tanks? (an extra 600lbs?)

I think they could fit a full size tank in the sonar well, instead of the "C" shaped one at present.

So the RN and RAF have "similar" capabilities. No?

Based on what you say similar yes but, at this time, as capable. No?

[Biggus]

While I am reluctant to enter this particular pi#*ing contest....


Tourist said....."the RN equivalent in the UK has all the same adquals/kit etc as the RAF SAR".

It was correctly pointed out, by ToTD, that this is not true. In response pasptoo made several comments, with some validity. However, inbound from SARF/MoD is not the same as fitted and in use, although to be fair pasptoo used the word "similar" when describing capabilities.

At the end of the day the RN Sea King, RAF Sea King, S-92 and AW139 all have different capabilities, which means the choice of asset to deploy to a SAR incident is, unfortunately, not just a case of which will be able to respond fastest.


Now you can carry on pi#*ing......

[Bismark]

Well, apart from the Multi-Sensor System (FLIR and TV camera),

The RN SKs would have had it if the Wg Cdr SAR desk officer in MoD Joint Capability had included them in the requirement. The "error" was spotted by the RN but the RAF 1* in ACDS(RP) at the time refused to add it back....so much for Joint!

[6Z3]

I wonder how their radar equipment compares. The 'Lightweight' is the same as we had in the '80s, with a pretty screen added. Their raw radar capability nowhere reaches the Red'n'Greys', not that a WSOp could utilise the info anyway.
The RN Observer is highly skilled and trained to be able to take control of and coordinate multiple assets (much of which of course Culdrose and the RN would provide) that would be needed to respond to a major maritime SAR disaster (a la Fasnet, or perhaps a maritime Lockerbie, or ferry disaster off the SW or English channel, or a submarine collision or sinking). Different league people, different league.

[Tourist]

TOTD

Yes quite correct, I should have said broadly similar.
The RAF Cab has slightly better range and slightly better speed in my experience plus the FLIR but a far worse radar and no Observer. I also understand that they have a different FCS?

My general point was actually not a pissing contest. I am saying that you get broadly the same level of service from RAF/RN/CIV SAR though there are bound to be areas of specialisation.

Eg If you are being rescued from a submarine, I would suggest that the RN cab would have had more practice. Ditto requiring HIFR/refuel from a frigate for a long ranger.

The RAF cab I am sure could point out instances where the FLIR would be invaluable, and obviously the extra range can come in useful.

My point is that the RAF is not superior to the RN/Civ, rather than saying that the RN is superior.

[Biggus]

Maybe people could call a truce at this point - and get back to actually talking about SARH?

[tucumseh]

I wonder how their radar equipment compares. The 'Lightweight' is the same as we had in the '80s, with a pretty screen added. Their raw radar capability nowhere reaches the Red'n'Greys'

Plan A was to fit all HAR3As and retrofit HAR3s with the RN’s upgraded radar, in part to achieve commonality. It was a “spend to save” measure that would recoup costs within a very short time. For example, brand new larger scanners had actually been set aside for delivery to Westland. But someone in RAF OR got excited about the possibility of a colour display, although retaining the very low power Transmitter meant there were few targets to see! The result is a hybrid of 1960s (Lightweight Radar) and early 1980s (Super Searcher) technologies which even the designer thought silly, despite making more out of the hybrid. The resultant waste was astronomical, not least managing obsolescence. The tale of MEL’s marketing manager trawling back street repair shops in Lagos for semiconductors is legendary.

[Thomas coupling]

Biggus: Spoil sport

Anyway it's not SAR(H) any more, it's: LONG SAR.

Return of PQQ: 10.01.12
Notify shortlisted bidders: 08.02.12
Return of outline proposals: 08.05.12
Bidder presentations: 11.05.12
Notify shortlisted bidders: 29.06.12
Dialogue meetings: 02.07.12
Issue ITT: 27.08.12
Return final tenders: 24.09.12
Notify intention to award contract: 21.01.13
Sign contract: 05.02.13.

Current interested players:
BOND
AW
SIKORSKY
EUROCOPTER
CHC
LM
THALES
BABCOCK
KBR
BOEING
BRISTOWS


Let the games begin.....................

[FODPlod]

All well and good but will they be as honourable?

Navy's SAR helicopter battles blizzard to rescue stricken women

[BS Alert]

Let's have the RAF SAR personnel transfer to RN! Only problem is, they would have to work as hard as RN SAR to get the job done!

[Biggus]

Thomas,

Were those dates from version one of the project gantt chart?

I suspect that in the real world all those dates will be useful for is a yardstick to measure project slippage against!


FODPlod,

I guess it depends on the rules/restrictions they end up operating to. But if they aren't then UK plc will just have to learn to live with it!

[Hawksridge]

6Z3, you said "I wonder how their radar equipment compares. The 'Lightweight' is the same as we had in the '80s, with a pretty screen added. Their raw radar capability nowhere reaches the Red'n'Greys', not that a WSOp could utilise the info anyway.
The RN Observer is highly skilled and trained to be able to take control of and coordinate multiple assets (much of which of course Culdrose and the RN would provide) that would be needed to respond to a major maritime SAR disaster (a la Fasnet, or perhaps a maritime Lockerbie, or ferry disaster off the SW or English channel, or a submarine collision or sinking). Different league people, different league."

It is not my invention to join the futile p***ing contest that this puerile thread has become, although I guess that by bothering to reply I've joined in by definition. Anyhow, I do wish to refute your assessment of both the radar technology to which you refer (you've only got half the picture, if you'll pardon the pun) and your generic observation of the WSOp fraternity, who contrarary to your implied assesment, are perfectly capable, of radar operating in the maritime and SAR environments and, surprise surprise, they even have the SA and radar performance to cope with being an OSC in the situations that you describe. They go through a full and proper training system that teaches them to operate safely and effectively in the maritime environment. Nor is the qualification of 'radar op' an ad qual as has been previously alluded to - it's actually core business and a recognised trade within the WSOp fraternity (they used to be called AEOps, youll recall) particularly for those from a Nimrod 'dry man' background. I think the chaps that spent 14months of basic training at Cranwell and previously 6 FTS learning how to be radar/EW operators might be a bit miffed by your comments.

There. I feel better now........

[[email protected]]

Hawksridge - agreed, in fact the comment about Observers being in a different league compared to WSOPs is true, only the Observers are not the ones in the Premier League. Just because the RN treat their non-commissioned rearcrew like second rate citizens doesn't mean everyone does!