CHF - Merlin Mk 4
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Dont think so. There's not much else to say though until it has. The Navy think they should have it so they can save CHF, the RAF think they should keep it because it's a ridiculously expensive option to marinise the airframes, relocate and retrain all the aircrew and that's just the financial aspect, before you even begin to mention the years of Merlin corporate operating experience that is going to be pissed away in a few years time, just to keep the navy happy.
I think that just about covers the story so far !
I think that just about covers the story so far !
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.....and because the PM told MoD to do it!
Barring the marinisation costs the rest shouldn't be too bad. Aircrew and engineers convert onto new types all of the time and it will be a question of osmosis rather than wholesale transfer (assuming that process starts now). Re-location of the hardware to Yeovilton should not take too much effort. The Junglies already know the role they will fulfil so no costs there. And presumably the sims will stay at Benson for the foreseeable future (the Junglies already go to Culdrose for Seaking sim time).
Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill.
Barring the marinisation costs the rest shouldn't be too bad. Aircrew and engineers convert onto new types all of the time and it will be a question of osmosis rather than wholesale transfer (assuming that process starts now). Re-location of the hardware to Yeovilton should not take too much effort. The Junglies already know the role they will fulfil so no costs there. And presumably the sims will stay at Benson for the foreseeable future (the Junglies already go to Culdrose for Seaking sim time).
Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill.
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People seem to skip over the cost of the marinisation as a minor irrelevance. Have JHC just found a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow somewhere? It's just I can see the headlines now... 'Scandal of Navy Helicopters that cannot fly off Ships'.......
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Bang on. It's so obvious to everyone for many reasons that it's the wrong decision, so there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that a modern day politician will make it and, along with CHF, rue the day.
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theres a god reason for sending the Merlins to Yeovilton
Next time the gearboxes (or something else major) break you can trundle the cabs down the A37 to Westlands and say "Right YOU built it. Now YOU fix the piece of ****". Nice straight Roman roads virtually door-to-door giving easy access.
Next time the gearboxes (or something else major) break you can trundle the cabs down the A37 to Westlands and say "Right YOU built it. Now YOU fix the piece of ****". Nice straight Roman roads virtually door-to-door giving easy access.
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Jamesdevice - Great idea. Problem is that AW have just been lent £22m by HMG to start a civil helicopter, AW 169, build line so they won't care about the MOD contract, especially as the MOD cash cow is empty. Cash for Mk4....... you have 2 hopes. Mr Cable said at Yeovil today, the government is short of money but they want to help Westlands convert from the military to civil market. Why do that if a big juicy MOD contract was in the pipeline?
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oooh thats interesting... looks like a plastic WG30. Lets hope the Itialians design the transmission this time AgustaWestland Unveils The AW169 | AgustaWestland
from that press release "Giuseppi Orsi, CEO, AgustaWestland said “We are unveiling the AW169 hear at Farnborough because ..."
If they can't keep typos out of the press release, god help them when it comes to writing the software.
Two things come to mind though
1) just what is left at Yeovil? GKN kept all the profitable stuff like the aerostructures business, while the subsidiaries were all sold off. Presumably theres just the erecting shop left with Westland themselves?
2) the ONLY Westland designed helicopter to be a success was / is the Lynx. Everything else was designed by someone else (Bristol, Saunders-Roe, Sikorsky, Bell, Aerospatiale, McDonnell...) The things they've designed themselves have all been failures or f'ups: Westiminster, WG30, Merlin (basic design was more Westland than Agusta when the airframe basics were fixed in the 1980's, though every dog and his chicken have had a hand since)
PS - in years past cabs trundling between the two airfields was a common sight. Westland had a fleet of oversize artic trailers painted in West Ham / Aston Villa colours in which you could hide a Wessex or Whirlwind. They were parked for years at the closed Houndstone Army camp. Presumably now all scrapped...
from that press release "Giuseppi Orsi, CEO, AgustaWestland said “We are unveiling the AW169 hear at Farnborough because ..."
If they can't keep typos out of the press release, god help them when it comes to writing the software.
Two things come to mind though
1) just what is left at Yeovil? GKN kept all the profitable stuff like the aerostructures business, while the subsidiaries were all sold off. Presumably theres just the erecting shop left with Westland themselves?
2) the ONLY Westland designed helicopter to be a success was / is the Lynx. Everything else was designed by someone else (Bristol, Saunders-Roe, Sikorsky, Bell, Aerospatiale, McDonnell...) The things they've designed themselves have all been failures or f'ups: Westiminster, WG30, Merlin (basic design was more Westland than Agusta when the airframe basics were fixed in the 1980's, though every dog and his chicken have had a hand since)
PS - in years past cabs trundling between the two airfields was a common sight. Westland had a fleet of oversize artic trailers painted in West Ham / Aston Villa colours in which you could hide a Wessex or Whirlwind. They were parked for years at the closed Houndstone Army camp. Presumably now all scrapped...
Last edited by jamesdevice; 21st Jul 2011 at 20:57.
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I'm guessing it will not be a blade fold, tail fold. They will just fit tie down rings to it and put it up and down the lifts of QE and PoW. Only problem is it will not fit in hangar on ocean. It will rot and get trashed in fairly short order.
Due to the landing gear the Merlin Mk3 cannot be lashed down in a manner suitable for ships, even if lashing points were added/reinstated. AWL suggest that the gear could be modified but I left the programme before the details / cost were provided. At the moment the Mk3 can 'visit' ships but not routinely operate from them.
Having seen what the 'coupon testing' material looked like when exposed to the simulated salt water environment I am not sure leaving them to rot is practical in any way. There has to be some protection added or the revised fleet life would not be long enough to convert all the CHF crews to type!
Please don't forget how tall the aircraft is before you try and park it downstairs!
Having seen what the 'coupon testing' material looked like when exposed to the simulated salt water environment I am not sure leaving them to rot is practical in any way. There has to be some protection added or the revised fleet life would not be long enough to convert all the CHF crews to type!
Please don't forget how tall the aircraft is before you try and park it downstairs!
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Like I said in an earlier post, if you make policy - it is worth having the wonga to back it up. What is the point of retraining 70 odd crews (where the hidden costs are enormous) just so the mk3 cannot go to sea??
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Apologies if this a stupid question but the Merlin started out as a maritme airframe. How the hell did the RAF manage to de-marinise it only to now have to re-marinise it. 
Bar the tail ramp, how does the HC version differ from an HM version?
Bar the tail ramp, how does the HC version differ from an HM version?
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"It will rot and get trashed in fairly short order"
Well they seem happy to operate Lynx and Apaches off the deck of Albion / Bulwark for prolonged periods without any kind of hangar at all. Wonder how long they'll last. Memories of the Wessex that went to the Falklands "on top" of the merchant ships. When they got back to Yeovilton many of the airframes were so badly corroded they were scrapped on arrival. And they were built a damn sight stronger than the Merlins are
Well they seem happy to operate Lynx and Apaches off the deck of Albion / Bulwark for prolonged periods without any kind of hangar at all. Wonder how long they'll last. Memories of the Wessex that went to the Falklands "on top" of the merchant ships. When they got back to Yeovilton many of the airframes were so badly corroded they were scrapped on arrival. And they were built a damn sight stronger than the Merlins are
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Blandy,
The RAF had very little input into the Mk3, indeed, we didn't really want it in the first place. Back in the nineties, the RAF was asked what equipment it wanted to recapitalise the SH fleet and the overwhelming response was a big buy of more Chinooks. Then SecDef, Michael Portillo, counselled the RAF on their misguided notions and persuaded them that a rehashed ASW helicopter, itself rehashed from a fanciful concept for a "heliliner", with a (fairly useless) ramp and some green paint was what they really wanted in the first place.
I don't like to get embroiled in politics and i've been pretty appalled by some of the short-term decisions made by the recent Labour administration, not to mention the latest SDSR. However, most of the long-term problems that today's forces have to contend with, stem from some far-reaching choices and policies of the Tory administrations of the 80s and 90s.
FJH
The RAF had very little input into the Mk3, indeed, we didn't really want it in the first place. Back in the nineties, the RAF was asked what equipment it wanted to recapitalise the SH fleet and the overwhelming response was a big buy of more Chinooks. Then SecDef, Michael Portillo, counselled the RAF on their misguided notions and persuaded them that a rehashed ASW helicopter, itself rehashed from a fanciful concept for a "heliliner", with a (fairly useless) ramp and some green paint was what they really wanted in the first place.
I don't like to get embroiled in politics and i've been pretty appalled by some of the short-term decisions made by the recent Labour administration, not to mention the latest SDSR. However, most of the long-term problems that today's forces have to contend with, stem from some far-reaching choices and policies of the Tory administrations of the 80s and 90s.
FJH
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I'm wondering whether the lords and masters have got themselves into a massive dilemma. Do we fund the second QE for big Dave's 'cat and trap' so we can operate it/flog it? Or: do we take the savings to marinise mk3, no ' cat and trap' and operate it as a LPH like Ocean.
There was a 'pot of gold' that they were hoping to use for the marinisation. The money saved from not buying Chinook Mk 6.......Now that we are buying Mk6, when and where will the Merlin upgrade dosh come from prior to 2020 to avoid the awful headline of 'Navy in helicopter that can't go to sea shocker...'
There was a 'pot of gold' that they were hoping to use for the marinisation. The money saved from not buying Chinook Mk 6.......Now that we are buying Mk6, when and where will the Merlin upgrade dosh come from prior to 2020 to avoid the awful headline of 'Navy in helicopter that can't go to sea shocker...'
Can't comment on the marinisation issues for the Mk3 but if the re-training of aircrew is too expensive & the pot of gold is not actually available, why not just move the RAF's Merlin fleet in to CHF as a job lot & tell 'em to get on with it. I'm sure that with the help of a a few existing exchange officers used to the amphib environment they'll soon pick it up. As personnel leave in the natural course of events they will be replaced by RN/RM staff suitably trained through the existing system on a trickle drafting basis.
No, I think I see a flaw in that plan.
No, I think I see a flaw in that plan.
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Bar the tail ramp, how does the HC version differ from an HM version?
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Andyy -
Or, why don't we send 14 new chinooks to CHF ?
Or, why don't we take a few navy bods on exchange to the RAF, have the 3 cleared for deck-ops and train the RAF in littoral move? It is only one half of the journey that's any different to what they've been doing for years anyway.
Or, why don't we send 14 new chinooks to CHF ?
Or, why don't we take a few navy bods on exchange to the RAF, have the 3 cleared for deck-ops and train the RAF in littoral move? It is only one half of the journey that's any different to what they've been doing for years anyway.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have just awakened from this horrible dream.
In it, Vince Cable decides that, with all the dosh AW are getting for their new 169, it would be a jolly good idea if they sold that type to the Maritime & Coastguard Agency and there you are - SAR requirement sorted!
Old Duffer
I have just awakened from this horrible dream.
In it, Vince Cable decides that, with all the dosh AW are getting for their new 169, it would be a jolly good idea if they sold that type to the Maritime & Coastguard Agency and there you are - SAR requirement sorted!
Old Duffer