The other E.E. classic, the Canberra. (Merged 23rd July '04)
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Can't let this stick on 99 can we? Confrontation time, end of 1964, Akrotiri wing back up for FEAF , 249 squadron Canberras, 8 aircraft. We, 32 squadron crews plus a couple from 249 replaced them after three months, using their B15s.
Tengah full to overflowing, resident B15 squadron, 45, an Australian Canberra squadron, an NZ Canberra squadron, resident PR9 squadron, resident Hunter squadron,20, visiting Javelins, and some Sea Vixens if I remember it right. And us. Great time had by all.
Our Canberras gained their Pink flamingo tail markings at this time courtesy of Manx Kelly, of fond memory, our squadron artist and PAI. He also did a mural of Niazis kebab stall on the crewroom wall to make us feel at home!
Just after Christmas, nearing the end of our detachment, Boss decides to show the fighter chaps they weren't the only ones to do run in and breaks, with tight stream landings to follow. He borrowed a T4 from 45 squadron, and we all set off as a 9 ship, showing the NEAF flag as a diamond nine of Canberras all over Singapore Island. On return we formed up as three three ship echelons, in close line astern, broke for a stream landing, and managed to get all nine onto the runway at once, no 9 touching down just before the Boss cleared. Not bad we thought on the normal 2000 yard runway, which I think Tengah had.
I have no doubt we had the odd Tiger or San Mig beer on the strength of that. A great detachment.
Tengah full to overflowing, resident B15 squadron, 45, an Australian Canberra squadron, an NZ Canberra squadron, resident PR9 squadron, resident Hunter squadron,20, visiting Javelins, and some Sea Vixens if I remember it right. And us. Great time had by all.
Our Canberras gained their Pink flamingo tail markings at this time courtesy of Manx Kelly, of fond memory, our squadron artist and PAI. He also did a mural of Niazis kebab stall on the crewroom wall to make us feel at home!
Just after Christmas, nearing the end of our detachment, Boss decides to show the fighter chaps they weren't the only ones to do run in and breaks, with tight stream landings to follow. He borrowed a T4 from 45 squadron, and we all set off as a 9 ship, showing the NEAF flag as a diamond nine of Canberras all over Singapore Island. On return we formed up as three three ship echelons, in close line astern, broke for a stream landing, and managed to get all nine onto the runway at once, no 9 touching down just before the Boss cleared. Not bad we thought on the normal 2000 yard runway, which I think Tengah had.
I have no doubt we had the odd Tiger or San Mig beer on the strength of that. A great detachment.
Beeayeate
On the B(I)8 how was the gun pack fitted? Also how many rounds per gun did it have? I assume that it was four 30mm ADEN cannons. Or am I thinking of another mark of Canberra?
CC
On the B(I)8 how was the gun pack fitted? Also how many rounds per gun did it have? I assume that it was four 30mm ADEN cannons. Or am I thinking of another mark of Canberra?
CC
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CC
The self-contained gunpack had 4 x 20mm Hispanos and was mounted up onto lugs in the rear of the bomb bay. Special bomb doors, with cut-outs at the rear, were used with the gunpack so that when closed they fitted around the pack. Each of the four cannon had an ammunition load of no more than 525 rounds making a total load of 2100 rounds. These were fired in 4-cannon "bursts" with the restriction that the firing be confined to bursts of no more than 3 seconds per 10 seconds. (Strangely the Pilot's Notes say that there had to be a 1 second interval between bursts, but another para in the Notes says 3 sec bursts with minimum interval of 10 sec!). The pilot was also restricted to having to allow a 1 to 2 minute cooling-off period after every three bursts, but firing could be carried out at any speed. All four cannon fired simultaneously although when the B(I)8 sqns went out to Kaun Tan (late 64) to support the troops during that little fracas the pilots found that by judicious use of circuit breakers the cannon could be fired individually.
The only RAF Canberras to have the gun pack were the B(I)8s and B(I)6s of the Strike Sqns in Germany. With the gunpack fitted the Canberra made a very effective ground attack aircraft, as whole "convoys" of redundant MT vehicles shot up on the Nordhorn range can testify, but they were only effective against soft targets hence "Interdictor".
There are many stories about using the gunpack, must see if any can be rustled up.
The self-contained gunpack had 4 x 20mm Hispanos and was mounted up onto lugs in the rear of the bomb bay. Special bomb doors, with cut-outs at the rear, were used with the gunpack so that when closed they fitted around the pack. Each of the four cannon had an ammunition load of no more than 525 rounds making a total load of 2100 rounds. These were fired in 4-cannon "bursts" with the restriction that the firing be confined to bursts of no more than 3 seconds per 10 seconds. (Strangely the Pilot's Notes say that there had to be a 1 second interval between bursts, but another para in the Notes says 3 sec bursts with minimum interval of 10 sec!). The pilot was also restricted to having to allow a 1 to 2 minute cooling-off period after every three bursts, but firing could be carried out at any speed. All four cannon fired simultaneously although when the B(I)8 sqns went out to Kaun Tan (late 64) to support the troops during that little fracas the pilots found that by judicious use of circuit breakers the cannon could be fired individually.
The only RAF Canberras to have the gun pack were the B(I)8s and B(I)6s of the Strike Sqns in Germany. With the gunpack fitted the Canberra made a very effective ground attack aircraft, as whole "convoys" of redundant MT vehicles shot up on the Nordhorn range can testify, but they were only effective against soft targets hence "Interdictor".
There are many stories about using the gunpack, must see if any can be rustled up.
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On the subject of Canberra asymmetric flying, a quote from an extremely knowledgeable boffin:-
"It is no good thinking of the PR9 as a Canberra with a big engine - it's a Lightning with an asymmetric problem."
"It is no good thinking of the PR9 as a Canberra with a big engine - it's a Lightning with an asymmetric problem."
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Does this count as a Canberra ?
http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/b-57_feature.html
I recently saw an article in Flight International saying that this aircraft is still in current service.
M!KE
http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/b-57_feature.html
I recently saw an article in Flight International saying that this aircraft is still in current service.
M!KE
Ich bin ein Prooner.
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M!KE,
Yep, it does. In my original post on this thread, I said "In all its derivative forms", and this is one of them.
We have had some stories from the guys in Oz (Thanks guys!) and I was rather hoping that we may get a tale or two from our Transatlantic cousins on their experiences with the B-57, in Vietnam, etc.
After all, the first live ordnance dropped on an enemy from a U.S.A.F. jet bomber was from a B-57 at Bien Gia in Vietnam.
Thank to everyone for contributing so far. Keep 'em coming.
N.Z.
Yep, it does. In my original post on this thread, I said "In all its derivative forms", and this is one of them.
We have had some stories from the guys in Oz (Thanks guys!) and I was rather hoping that we may get a tale or two from our Transatlantic cousins on their experiences with the B-57, in Vietnam, etc.
After all, the first live ordnance dropped on an enemy from a U.S.A.F. jet bomber was from a B-57 at Bien Gia in Vietnam.
Thank to everyone for contributing so far. Keep 'em coming.
N.Z.
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I was at the EAA Airventure at Oshkosh in 2001 and one of them showed up there. Very impressive. I had an interesting chat with one of the pilots regarding handling at high level.
It just shows the difference between the British and American attitude to 'The Public' that they had a C 17 there all the time, open for visits and doing a daily display. The B 57 showed up for one day, a couple of B 1s flew by and there were other goodies I can't think of now. Oshkosh, for those of you who don't know, is the American equivalent of the PFA Rally.
Mike W
It just shows the difference between the British and American attitude to 'The Public' that they had a C 17 there all the time, open for visits and doing a daily display. The B 57 showed up for one day, a couple of B 1s flew by and there were other goodies I can't think of now. Oshkosh, for those of you who don't know, is the American equivalent of the PFA Rally.
Mike W
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Before the moderators decide to bin this sticky (it seems that some of the youngsters don't have a soul for history- see the "sticky" thread) I thought it time for a picture and puzzle; having just learned how to post a picture I suppose I'm simply showing off my new found skills.
First the picture of the disbandment of the Canberra in 2 ATAF taken at RAF Laarbruch showing half of the formidable line up of B(i) 8's.
Secondly; what, where and whom?
Apologies for the quality of the piccies.The first was my Kodak snap and the second was the professional RAF photog!
First the picture of the disbandment of the Canberra in 2 ATAF taken at RAF Laarbruch showing half of the formidable line up of B(i) 8's.
Secondly; what, where and whom?
Apologies for the quality of the piccies.The first was my Kodak snap and the second was the professional RAF photog!
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Roghead
Nice pic of the 16 Sqn B(I)8s lined up at Laarbruch. Sad that none of this mark Canberra has been preserved in the UK. (Note the shark mouth as well!).
As to the second image, there's no real identifiers so unless someone was actually there it might prove difficult to ident. Thought at first it could be a 95 Sqn kite, from the indistinct badge on the fin, but the legs of their (98's) Cerberus are more distinctly separate. Second thought was that it could be 249 Sqn's charging elephant. This is a possibility as they went out to Akrotiri in the late 50's (hence the KD) and became one of the sqns forming the Akrotiri Strike Wing (Pink Flamigos). Pic could show one of (or the first?) of their kites arriving at Akers circa late 1957.
Then there's the "rocket" or similar behind the guys on the left - could that be a Nord AS.30? If so, that would put the pic in the days of the Akrotiri Strike Wing.
Good images though, history material. Got any more?
Nice pic of the 16 Sqn B(I)8s lined up at Laarbruch. Sad that none of this mark Canberra has been preserved in the UK. (Note the shark mouth as well!).
As to the second image, there's no real identifiers so unless someone was actually there it might prove difficult to ident. Thought at first it could be a 95 Sqn kite, from the indistinct badge on the fin, but the legs of their (98's) Cerberus are more distinctly separate. Second thought was that it could be 249 Sqn's charging elephant. This is a possibility as they went out to Akrotiri in the late 50's (hence the KD) and became one of the sqns forming the Akrotiri Strike Wing (Pink Flamigos). Pic could show one of (or the first?) of their kites arriving at Akers circa late 1957.
Then there's the "rocket" or similar behind the guys on the left - could that be a Nord AS.30? If so, that would put the pic in the days of the Akrotiri Strike Wing.Good images though, history material. Got any more?
Last edited by Beeayeate; 22nd Apr 2004 at 19:28.
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[IMG]
As you say-- 16 Sqn B(i)8's. Made up of the last Canberra Sqns in Germany. The sharks teeth et al were totally unnofficial initially. A Sqn navigator made the original and the troops did the rest!!
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RogHead,
The photos of the 16 Sqn B(I)8s with sharks teeth brought it all back, Summer 72.
I had to go searching for my old Germany Canberra fotos. I've found some 3 Sqn ones as well. If I manage to master the scanner etc I will attempt to put them on the site.
The photos of the 16 Sqn B(I)8s with sharks teeth brought it all back, Summer 72.
I had to go searching for my old Germany Canberra fotos. I've found some 3 Sqn ones as well. If I manage to master the scanner etc I will attempt to put them on the site.
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Gilstens,you may have this one but if not ....
Poor quality picture but great quality memories.
Final 16Sqn Aircrew line up prior to Canberra disbandment RAF Laarbruch 1972.
Any good printable stories?
Beeayeate, re the earlier "quiz" picture, you're right it is an AS30 on the wing but you've still got work to do on the Sqn, location and date.
Poor quality picture but great quality memories.
Final 16Sqn Aircrew line up prior to Canberra disbandment RAF Laarbruch 1972.
Any good printable stories?
Beeayeate, re the earlier "quiz" picture, you're right it is an AS30 on the wing but you've still got work to do on the Sqn, location and date.
Last edited by Roghead; 24th Apr 2004 at 14:36.
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Roghead
. . . you're right it is an AS30 on the wing but you've still got work to do on the Sqn, location and date.
OK, somehow didn't think I would be right really.
With further digging I find that only three sqns had Canberras that could take the AS.30 - 32, 73 and 45. So . . . I'll take a reasoned guess at the pic showing some sqn event on 45 Sqn at Tengah after Aug 66 and before Feb 70. (The fin badge could be their flying camel I guess.)
Wasn't really involved with the B.15/16s, was basically interdictors (then 51's weirdos) and latterly various "cooking" Canberras. Good game though, pity nobody else joined in.
So, what's the answer?
Mmmm...the short bloke, 4th from right, doesn't he look like David Hemmings (of film fame)?
"The pilot\'s over there"
One use for the aircrew glove.
. . . you're right it is an AS30 on the wing but you've still got work to do on the Sqn, location and date.
OK, somehow didn't think I would be right really.
With further digging I find that only three sqns had Canberras that could take the AS.30 - 32, 73 and 45. So . . . I'll take a reasoned guess at the pic showing some sqn event on 45 Sqn at Tengah after Aug 66 and before Feb 70. (The fin badge could be their flying camel I guess.) Wasn't really involved with the B.15/16s, was basically interdictors (then 51's weirdos) and latterly various "cooking" Canberras. Good game though, pity nobody else joined in.
So, what's the answer?Mmmm...the short bloke, 4th from right, doesn't he look like David Hemmings (of film fame)?
"The pilot\'s over there"
One use for the aircrew glove.
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Yes, I'm with Beeayeate, it must be 45 Sqn, I don't recognise any from 73, and they are not nearly good looking enough to be 32! And the photo looks more like a fairly leafy Tengah than dusty and dry Akrotiri.
As to date, I think we on 32 were the first to get AS30, and then there was a trial of, I think, 20 missiles from Akrotiri on the El Adem range, run by Manx Kelly who commanded the newly formed Canberra Tactics and Trials Unit. I was by then up the hill at Episcopi, on the NEAF staff, but was allowed back now and again to keep my Canberra hand in. I find I did an AS30 chase, presumably in connection with the trial, in July 66. Whether 45 Sqn fired any missiles before the end of the trials I dont know, but I would suggest that the photo was taken in the latter part of 66, or 67.
And a correction to my last post, FEAF detachment, as Beeayeate points out, only 32, 45 and 73 Sqns had the AS30, all B15 rather than B16. So it must have been 73 we took over from, not 249 as I thought; they had B16s.
Glad this thread is still going; there must be more!
As to date, I think we on 32 were the first to get AS30, and then there was a trial of, I think, 20 missiles from Akrotiri on the El Adem range, run by Manx Kelly who commanded the newly formed Canberra Tactics and Trials Unit. I was by then up the hill at Episcopi, on the NEAF staff, but was allowed back now and again to keep my Canberra hand in. I find I did an AS30 chase, presumably in connection with the trial, in July 66. Whether 45 Sqn fired any missiles before the end of the trials I dont know, but I would suggest that the photo was taken in the latter part of 66, or 67.
And a correction to my last post, FEAF detachment, as Beeayeate points out, only 32, 45 and 73 Sqns had the AS30, all B15 rather than B16. So it must have been 73 we took over from, not 249 as I thought; they had B16s.
Glad this thread is still going; there must be more!
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Tim
I think we on 32 were the first to get AS30
Reckon so, 32 Sqn's WH966 was the first to be fitted for the trials. Seems the RAF bought over 1000 of the French AS.30 air-to-surface missile and doled them out rather sparingly. ASW had them of course and 45 Sqn got its first in late 1966 but it was a year before they got several kites fitted up and actually live-fired (according to this 'ere book!). In 1969 though when the RAF started withdrawing from the Far, restrictions were lifted on the large stocks of weapons, including stocks of AS.30s, that had been squirreled away, by those who decided such things, in their miserly allocations to sqns. Seems 45 Sqn spent many happy live-firing AS.30 missions just before they disbanded at Tengah. Must have been fun. Anybody have any tales of those times? Surely someone on pprune must have flown or worked Canberras during that period.
Tim : can you confirm 32 Sqn displayed blue and red diagonal stripes on their fins?
I think we on 32 were the first to get AS30
Reckon so, 32 Sqn's WH966 was the first to be fitted for the trials. Seems the RAF bought over 1000 of the French AS.30 air-to-surface missile and doled them out rather sparingly.
ASW had them of course and 45 Sqn got its first in late 1966 but it was a year before they got several kites fitted up and actually live-fired (according to this 'ere book!). In 1969 though when the RAF started withdrawing from the Far, restrictions were lifted on the large stocks of weapons, including stocks of AS.30s, that had been squirreled away, by those who decided such things, in their miserly allocations to sqns. Seems 45 Sqn spent many happy live-firing AS.30 missions just before they disbanded at Tengah. Must have been fun. Anybody have any tales of those times? Surely someone on pprune must have flown or worked Canberras during that period.Tim : can you confirm 32 Sqn displayed blue and red diagonal stripes on their fins?
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Beeayeate/Tim Mills.
Well done guys, I'm always amazed at the ability of people to dig their memories/archives and get damn close to the answer. It's easy for me 'cos it's my picture.
The AS30 shot was taken at RAF Labuan (now,appropriately, a Saga holiday destination!) in May 68. It shows the 45 Sqn detachment aircrew, SengO and an AVM whose name I forget (5th fom left).
We fired several missiles at Balambangan Range off the northern tip of Borneo, but I was only a "passenger" for these firings.The B15 flew with two navs and it was the nav observer who had the fun.
The "short bloke, 4th from right" was the Boss's (Sqn Ldr Tony Skingsley) navigator and retired a couple of years later and is now a vicar in SW England.
Finally, I think we were a lot prettier than the Cyprus Wing- you had to be to live in Singapore.
Tim you mention the amazing Manx Kelly and that reminds me that I posted a picture taken whilst flying with him over NE Malaya back in the mid 60's. It's on the Buccaneer Low Level thread, but so far nobody has pointed out that the aircraft is not a Bucc !! Don't tell.
Well done guys, I'm always amazed at the ability of people to dig their memories/archives and get damn close to the answer. It's easy for me 'cos it's my picture.
The AS30 shot was taken at RAF Labuan (now,appropriately, a Saga holiday destination!) in May 68. It shows the 45 Sqn detachment aircrew, SengO and an AVM whose name I forget (5th fom left).
We fired several missiles at Balambangan Range off the northern tip of Borneo, but I was only a "passenger" for these firings.The B15 flew with two navs and it was the nav observer who had the fun.
The "short bloke, 4th from right" was the Boss's (Sqn Ldr Tony Skingsley) navigator and retired a couple of years later and is now a vicar in SW England.
Finally, I think we were a lot prettier than the Cyprus Wing- you had to be to live in Singapore.
Tim you mention the amazing Manx Kelly and that reminds me that I posted a picture taken whilst flying with him over NE Malaya back in the mid 60's. It's on the Buccaneer Low Level thread, but so far nobody has pointed out that the aircraft is not a Bucc !! Don't tell.
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Identifying stuff is generally good fun Roghead, but can be hard to pin down an actual event if it's a personal photo.
As in Real Life (tm), the venerable Canberra seems to have outlasted the Vulcan. Doubt this will last though unless there is more posts.
Just as a sweetner, a pic of a 59 Sqn B(I)8 (with gunpack) over Germany in 1959. Looks great doesn't it?
(Pic from an ex-59 Sqn nav)
As in Real Life (tm), the venerable Canberra seems to have outlasted the Vulcan.
Doubt this will last though unless there is more posts.Just as a sweetner, a pic of a 59 Sqn B(I)8 (with gunpack) over Germany in 1959. Looks great doesn't it?
(Pic from an ex-59 Sqn nav)
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Roghead. A great photo on the Bucc thread, and I will not breathe a word! Manx also took a spectacular home movie, hand held, of a low level sortie from Aden, when he was flying Meteor FR9s on 8 Sqn. We used to show it at briefings at Akrotiri, to show real low level flying in that environment. I wonder where it is now. One of the rather more imaginative and able members of the RAF, too imaginative to stay in a Strike Command office, he left at 38 and invented the Rothmans Aerobatic Team, as no doubt you know. A great mate, sadly long departed.
Beeayeate. Another great photo, wish I'd had a go in a B8. To my shame, I can't remember if we had Blue and White stripes or not. Certainly our colours, but I can't remember how and where they were displayed. If I run across a photo which shows it, I'll let you know.
Beeayeate. Another great photo, wish I'd had a go in a B8. To my shame, I can't remember if we had Blue and White stripes or not. Certainly our colours, but I can't remember how and where they were displayed. If I run across a photo which shows it, I'll let you know.
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Speaking of pictures - I've one of WT535, after she transferred to the Navy, Sqdn 852. Taken in 73/74 - it's an air to air shot probably taken from an 8 Sqdn Shackleton. Anyone care see it / host it for me?
And thanks to Gainsay (next reply in the thread)
And thanks to Gainsay (next reply in the thread)
Last edited by You want it when?; 27th Apr 2004 at 14:50.