2 person Fightdeck rule
Join Date: Oct 2016
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A job as a CC is not difficult to get, and takes no preparation.
A commercial airline pilot job takes a lot of money and a lot of time to get, IF you can get it. Who's to say this psycho can fly in the first place. It is also a numbers game. Chances of a looney CC or pilot? I know where to place that bet.
99.9% of the CC aren't going to be able to stop anything anyway, and after this incident, there won't be any male cc in the flight deck when I step out.
A commercial airline pilot job takes a lot of money and a lot of time to get, IF you can get it. Who's to say this psycho can fly in the first place. It is also a numbers game. Chances of a looney CC or pilot? I know where to place that bet.
99.9% of the CC aren't going to be able to stop anything anyway, and after this incident, there won't be any male cc in the flight deck when I step out.
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Read the facts and you'll soon be able to work it out.
And by the way guys, the Saudia Tristar accident was the result of having a dyslexic flight engineer onboard (it was cited as one of the leading causes). Read the report and then get back to me, especially you Loose (that's if you can read the report within the next decade).
For info, from the Germanwings accident report....
(My emphasis).
...... some of the previous events listed in (previously in the report , "ed" ) show that even with two persons in the cockpit (i.e. two pilots), a suicide remains possible. This “2-person in the cockpit” rule cannot fully mitigate the risk of suicide, although it is likely to make it more difficult. In addition, this rule may introduce new security risks by allowing an additional person inside the flight deck. Consequently, the BEA acknowledges the potential safety benefits of the “2-person in the cockpit” rule, although the security risks and training needs for the staff performing the tasks of that second person have to be carefully assessed.
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Canadian regulators also removed the rule in June.
Rule requiring airlines to keep 2 crew in cockpit at all times lifted by Transport Canada
Rule requiring airlines to keep 2 crew in cockpit at all times lifted by Transport Canada
Join Date: Apr 1999
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A320ECAM - lose the attitude and the "I'm smarter than you" stance!
The simple fact is that if a pilot is going to commit suicide there is nothing any cabin crew can do to stop him. The CC could have a gun and the pilot could still disconnect with his thumb and turn the column completely left/right is a matter of about 3 seconds. The airplane is unrecoverable. The said CC - completely useless!
The simple fact is that if a pilot is going to commit suicide there is nothing any cabin crew can do to stop him. The CC could have a gun and the pilot could still disconnect with his thumb and turn the column completely left/right is a matter of about 3 seconds. The airplane is unrecoverable. The said CC - completely useless!
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When did you lose your common sense?
Read the facts and you'll soon be able to work it out.
And by the way guys, the Saudia Tristar accident was the result of having a dyslexic flight engineer onboard (it was cited as one of the leading causes). Read the report and then get back to me, especially you Loose (that's if you can read the report within the next decade).
Read the facts and you'll soon be able to work it out.
And by the way guys, the Saudia Tristar accident was the result of having a dyslexic flight engineer onboard (it was cited as one of the leading causes). Read the report and then get back to me, especially you Loose (that's if you can read the report within the next decade).
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C C in the cockpit to save the day, my thoughts...
With only 1 pilot in the cockpit and a C C member to save the day, what hope would they have if the remaining pilot at the controls of an airbus did the following. Over a 10s period turn off the primary and secondary flight controls and then the engine masters. At this point the C C gets startled by events and wouldn't know what to do while the pilot decides to get out of the seat to deadbolt the door while attacking the C C member. All would be lost, it really is a pointless exercise.
I would prefer to trust the other pilot being left in the seat alone rather than a brand new C C member with no psychometric evaluation or particular in depth personal or professional history being known.
How about 2 pilots in the cockpit and while on controlled rest the "on duty" pilot choses to Jettison fuel while over the ocean or polar route.
To me, the safest answer would be to ensure that there is a temporary way to disarm the door locking mechanism. When there is only 1 pilot in the cockpit the deadbolt would be powered open and the door access gained . Aircraft with coded door access would mean pilots would need to have a personal code created for them "alone" should they ever need to use it as above. Could a potential terrorist get the code off you? Well when you go out to the bathroom, would you want to open the door for them and suffer the same fate either way with them at the controls?
Perhaps in the thread title incident it was a case where the pilot is at the controls and the C C member becomes incapacitated blocking the door. Now you will have no one at the controls while the pilot attends to them and removes them from the blocked door area. No pilot at the controls caused by a worthless policy which is described above as pointless.
Just a few thoughts there, not the best solutions but better than the current policy.
Enjoy your week all
Jack
With only 1 pilot in the cockpit and a C C member to save the day, what hope would they have if the remaining pilot at the controls of an airbus did the following. Over a 10s period turn off the primary and secondary flight controls and then the engine masters. At this point the C C gets startled by events and wouldn't know what to do while the pilot decides to get out of the seat to deadbolt the door while attacking the C C member. All would be lost, it really is a pointless exercise.
I would prefer to trust the other pilot being left in the seat alone rather than a brand new C C member with no psychometric evaluation or particular in depth personal or professional history being known.
How about 2 pilots in the cockpit and while on controlled rest the "on duty" pilot choses to Jettison fuel while over the ocean or polar route.
To me, the safest answer would be to ensure that there is a temporary way to disarm the door locking mechanism. When there is only 1 pilot in the cockpit the deadbolt would be powered open and the door access gained . Aircraft with coded door access would mean pilots would need to have a personal code created for them "alone" should they ever need to use it as above. Could a potential terrorist get the code off you? Well when you go out to the bathroom, would you want to open the door for them and suffer the same fate either way with them at the controls?
Perhaps in the thread title incident it was a case where the pilot is at the controls and the C C member becomes incapacitated blocking the door. Now you will have no one at the controls while the pilot attends to them and removes them from the blocked door area. No pilot at the controls caused by a worthless policy which is described above as pointless.
Just a few thoughts there, not the best solutions but better than the current policy.
Enjoy your week all
Jack
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The logic of the situation is simple. A pilot can fatally crash the plane if there is one person , 2 people or 5 people in the flight deck. Consider the possibility of the pilot monitoring recovering if for example the PF shoves the control wheel forward with full strength at 100 ft agl. Big fat zero!!
There are many other ways. One pilot could get up and grab the axe and bash the other to blazes then do what he likes. The point is , that's an accepted risk. Or simple pull the fire handles over the North Pole! No way to stop it.
Now we introduce a new risk in the form of a cabin crew! They may be many things including a radicalised religious freak or just a troubled young girl jilted by too many pilots out for revenge. Doesn't matter, they are a risk even if they are just a pumped up purser who has a personality clash with an aggressive captain.
I think whoever said there should be 2 pilots in the cockpit if a cc is to be present is spot on.
There are many other ways. One pilot could get up and grab the axe and bash the other to blazes then do what he likes. The point is , that's an accepted risk. Or simple pull the fire handles over the North Pole! No way to stop it.
Now we introduce a new risk in the form of a cabin crew! They may be many things including a radicalised religious freak or just a troubled young girl jilted by too many pilots out for revenge. Doesn't matter, they are a risk even if they are just a pumped up purser who has a personality clash with an aggressive captain.
I think whoever said there should be 2 pilots in the cockpit if a cc is to be present is spot on.
So if there was another crew member in the flight deck, then they would have been able to stop that moron from parking the Airbus on the side of the Alps..
The report also points out however that introducing another crew member onto the flight deck may increase the risk of causing another incident or accident (FWIW one of the BEA spokesmen also said the same and provided a bit more detail during a Press conference when the report was released). In short by insisting on a "two person" rule to try and solve problem A (in this case pilot suicide) you may be increasing the risk of loss of life in the future caused by B, C D, etc happening ....I'm not going to spell out all the B, C or D's in plain language here but one look round your airline might give you some some ideas.
The level of extra risk is considered to vary from airline to airline which is why the EASA recommendations allow airlines to carry out their own risk assesment before deciding whether to implement a two pilot rule, or an EASA approved equivalent measure which is more appropriate to their operation.
Last edited by wiggy; 28th Aug 2017 at 08:23.
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If the industry was truly concerned and if the issue was as big as some make it out to be then the solution would be to have 3 pilots on ALL flights. One to take the seat of the guy peeing! But that would be expensive.
CC in the flight deck is nothing more than optics for public consumption.
If the story at EK is true it will illustrate (to the world) just how silly the policy is.
CC in the flight deck is nothing more than optics for public consumption.
If the story at EK is true it will illustrate (to the world) just how silly the policy is.
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Originally Posted by Talparc
more like a love fight
More seriously, when alone with a male CC in the cockpit, I always :
- unlock my belt, so If being attacked, I can defend myself better. Simple and unnoticable.
- prepare myself mentally to retaliate using elbows, striking backwards towards the face. Simple and efficient.
So much for the good atmosphere.
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A love fight using fists ?
More seriously, when alone with a male CC in the cockpit, I always :
- unlock my belt, so If being attacked, I can defend myself better. Simple and unnoticable.
- prepare myself mentally to retaliate using elbows, striking backwards towards the face. Simple and efficient.
So much for the good atmosphere.
More seriously, when alone with a male CC in the cockpit, I always :
- unlock my belt, so If being attacked, I can defend myself better. Simple and unnoticable.
- prepare myself mentally to retaliate using elbows, striking backwards towards the face. Simple and efficient.
So much for the good atmosphere.
MS
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I find it pretty stupid that a supernumerary crew with a month long history in EK has to sit on a jump seat for takeoff and landing but a pilot on his off days is not allowed, its to easy for some lunatic get hired and then do something crazy, its just a matter of time.
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recceguy
If you are alone in the cockpit I would not recommend unlatching your seatbelt.
An aircraft (that you're strapped to) and the naughty man insn't strapped to...would provide you with a multitude of options to help avoid him reigning blows down upon you.
Additionally your Parker Pen (or if a Captain) your Mont Blanc pen can prove to be very useful if you attempt to direct towards the eyes, if at all possible.
If (and this is far more probable), we inadvertently fly into some particularly nasty CAT - you (the pilot who is supposed to be f*#king flying the thing is now also face planting the overheard panel.
Don't undo your seatbelt mate.
Eternity.
If you are alone in the cockpit I would not recommend unlatching your seatbelt.
An aircraft (that you're strapped to) and the naughty man insn't strapped to...would provide you with a multitude of options to help avoid him reigning blows down upon you.
Additionally your Parker Pen (or if a Captain) your Mont Blanc pen can prove to be very useful if you attempt to direct towards the eyes, if at all possible.
If (and this is far more probable), we inadvertently fly into some particularly nasty CAT - you (the pilot who is supposed to be f*#king flying the thing is now also face planting the overheard panel.
Don't undo your seatbelt mate.
Eternity.
Last edited by eternity; 28th Aug 2017 at 18:24. Reason: Missed a key word...