Careful with your bidding ...
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3 man ULR Fix
EK tried the 3 man crew about 7-8 years ago. There is only 15-20 minutes of time at the gate before you are out of time. Best one I heard on the freq. one morning was from the Captain of 201 who called ops and told them either send the crew bus for the pilots to go home, or a fourth pilot; the 4 th guy miraculously appeared in short order............
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FF,
My understanding of ULR rules is that there is no such thing as discretion. You can do up to 22hrs. No mention of discretion in the ULR OP Plan.
If you divert and decide not to continue with the next sector because you are too tired and it's not safe, then so be it.
The whole point they changed from SLR (a340 days (3 crew JFK)) to ULR (4 crew) is for "OPS FLEX".
Too many crews running out of hours with diversions and with tech issue ex dxb.
It means we need to be planned with 4 crew but we can do 22hrs generally without question.
This is also why I understand a ULR's cannot "normally" be planned with 3 crew.
For info:- Under normal FTL's (Not ULR rules) 3 Crew can do 16:15 duty going to BOS.
Now once a city pairing is defined as a ULR it remains a ULR the whole year so it can not be rostered 4 crew ULR winter and 3 crew non-ULR summer. (See CAAP 14 City Pair)
Currently all USA flights are defined as ULR's in EK bid package.
thoughts?
M
My understanding of ULR rules is that there is no such thing as discretion. You can do up to 22hrs. No mention of discretion in the ULR OP Plan.
If you divert and decide not to continue with the next sector because you are too tired and it's not safe, then so be it.
The whole point they changed from SLR (a340 days (3 crew JFK)) to ULR (4 crew) is for "OPS FLEX".
Too many crews running out of hours with diversions and with tech issue ex dxb.
It means we need to be planned with 4 crew but we can do 22hrs generally without question.
This is also why I understand a ULR's cannot "normally" be planned with 3 crew.
For info:- Under normal FTL's (Not ULR rules) 3 Crew can do 16:15 duty going to BOS.
Now once a city pairing is defined as a ULR it remains a ULR the whole year so it can not be rostered 4 crew ULR winter and 3 crew non-ULR summer. (See CAAP 14 City Pair)
Currently all USA flights are defined as ULR's in EK bid package.
thoughts?
M
Last edited by Modesh; 17th Apr 2014 at 11:27.
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Dear Fatbus,
If you are talking about BOS. Just do a roster search for BOS.
At the end of the Trip Details it says ULR.
So under the city pairs rule it must be ULR in summer too...no?
M
If you are talking about BOS. Just do a roster search for BOS.
At the end of the Trip Details it says ULR.
So under the city pairs rule it must be ULR in summer too...no?
M
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Strange as the block DXB-BOS
MAR (4 crew) = 13:30
APR (4 crew) = 13:30
And in MAY (3 Crew) the block is.....13:30
Anybody see any differences that i'm missing?
For info BOS-DXB is 5 mins less in MAY?
??
M
MAR (4 crew) = 13:30
APR (4 crew) = 13:30
And in MAY (3 Crew) the block is.....13:30
Anybody see any differences that i'm missing?
For info BOS-DXB is 5 mins less in MAY?
??
M
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So if the above is the case, can we expect not to see SBU on any of these flights? I mean, they're saying it's not a ULR. From my weak mind, doesn't SBU stand for Standby ULR? Just asking.
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Would you also then not need to be acclimatized prior to a US flight with 3 pilots? Correct me if I'm wrong, but augmenting ops do not require the three local nights prior to undertaking duty. A three man crew can still be unacclimatized assuming the extension is sufficient for the FDP to complete the flight.
Can I now come straight off of leave and hop into a cockpit with only 3 guys and cross the Atlantic without the current provision to in DXB for three days prior to a US trip?
I just want to make sure I have this clear... So we remove a pilot from the cockpit, reduce the amount of days off required before and after the flight, then go flying over the North Atlantic for 13h30m.
I'm baffled by the gaping hole in the Swiss cheese this could create.
"Visionary" leadership indeed
Keep Rowing!!!
Can I now come straight off of leave and hop into a cockpit with only 3 guys and cross the Atlantic without the current provision to in DXB for three days prior to a US trip?
I just want to make sure I have this clear... So we remove a pilot from the cockpit, reduce the amount of days off required before and after the flight, then go flying over the North Atlantic for 13h30m.
I'm baffled by the gaping hole in the Swiss cheese this could create.
"Visionary" leadership indeed
Keep Rowing!!!
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for EK'ers:
Annex 7.C.1 - ULR Operational Plan
para a; A pairing is categorised as an Ultra Long Range (ULR) Operation when the scheduled flight time could exceed 14 hours taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
IMHO JFK/IAD are ULR. Probably BOS as well. Makes sense for the company as the FDP is longer.
para g; A 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled Flight Time in excess of 15 hours.
IMHO, a 3 man ULR crew is legal from the UAE to the North Eastern USA.
Based on para g, it can be argued that a 3 man crew would/should have an FDP limit of 16 hours.
Doing the maths, EK201 in May has a Westbound block of 13:45. 1 hour pre-flight start of duty means a rostered FDP of 14:45. Therefore, any delay of more than 1:15 takes you over the 16 hours FDP.
However, 7.15; A Commander may exercise his discretion to extend an FDP…. this may be up to 3 hours prior to the start of a single sector flight…
Therefore, it could be argued you can do upto 19 hours FDP.
Additionally; 7.C.7 Contingency Provisions - Operational disruption
7.C.7 - c.2 Refers to return operations to DXB but the company acknowledges there is an increased workload with 3 crew.
7.C.7 - c.3 Again refers to return operations - Dispatch is not permitted with an aircraft system unserviceability that would require a higher than normal workload on behalf of the remaining flight crew during approach and landing. Be careful what you take down route.
7.C.7 - c.4 Return operations - Any flight dispatched with only 3 flight crew shall be limited to a maximum Flight Time of 15 hours
I'm not advocating any particular action. Just thought the above may be of interest. Take care out there!
Annex 7.C.1 - ULR Operational Plan
para a; A pairing is categorised as an Ultra Long Range (ULR) Operation when the scheduled flight time could exceed 14 hours taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
IMHO JFK/IAD are ULR. Probably BOS as well. Makes sense for the company as the FDP is longer.
para g; A 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled Flight Time in excess of 15 hours.
IMHO, a 3 man ULR crew is legal from the UAE to the North Eastern USA.
Based on para g, it can be argued that a 3 man crew would/should have an FDP limit of 16 hours.
Doing the maths, EK201 in May has a Westbound block of 13:45. 1 hour pre-flight start of duty means a rostered FDP of 14:45. Therefore, any delay of more than 1:15 takes you over the 16 hours FDP.
However, 7.15; A Commander may exercise his discretion to extend an FDP…. this may be up to 3 hours prior to the start of a single sector flight…
Therefore, it could be argued you can do upto 19 hours FDP.
Additionally; 7.C.7 Contingency Provisions - Operational disruption
7.C.7 - c.2 Refers to return operations to DXB but the company acknowledges there is an increased workload with 3 crew.
7.C.7 - c.3 Again refers to return operations - Dispatch is not permitted with an aircraft system unserviceability that would require a higher than normal workload on behalf of the remaining flight crew during approach and landing. Be careful what you take down route.
7.C.7 - c.4 Return operations - Any flight dispatched with only 3 flight crew shall be limited to a maximum Flight Time of 15 hours
I'm not advocating any particular action. Just thought the above may be of interest. Take care out there!
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Dear HD,
I can see how you came up with that however please consider this...
At no point does it say a normal crew is 3.
The g statement backs up and repeats the contingency provision rule.
There is no discretion on ULR's, its up to 22hrs duty.
So if as you say, a 3 crew ULR can be planned then FDP for 3 crew ULR is still 22hrs! (With the initial flt planned at <15hrs) Is any authority really going to allow a planned FDP of up to 22hrs for 3 crew???
JFK and IAD are ULR's as defined by EK as block is >14hrs during the year.
As Fatbus says BOS is not by EK definition a ULR, however is it being operated as a ULR currently. See trip info.
If they are to operate BOS as a 3 crew it should be under normal FTL's for all year. City pair rules.
They can't say the flight time is less in the summer as the block as published is the same for APR and MAY.
APR (4 crew) 13:30 and MAY (3 Crew) 13:30
M
I can see how you came up with that however please consider this...
h. A ULR crew will normally comprise of 2 Captains and 2 First Officers but may be revised to 1 Captain and 3 First Officers subject to the approval of DSVP-FO.
The g statement backs up and repeats the contingency provision rule.
There is no discretion on ULR's, its up to 22hrs duty.
So if as you say, a 3 crew ULR can be planned then FDP for 3 crew ULR is still 22hrs! (With the initial flt planned at <15hrs) Is any authority really going to allow a planned FDP of up to 22hrs for 3 crew???
JFK and IAD are ULR's as defined by EK as block is >14hrs during the year.
As Fatbus says BOS is not by EK definition a ULR, however is it being operated as a ULR currently. See trip info.
If they are to operate BOS as a 3 crew it should be under normal FTL's for all year. City pair rules.
They can't say the flight time is less in the summer as the block as published is the same for APR and MAY.
APR (4 crew) 13:30 and MAY (3 Crew) 13:30
M
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Mostly all agreed, my post was just MHO and interpretation.
para G clearly, IMHO, states that a 3 man crew can operate a ULR flight which by definition would be planned between 14-15 hours flight time.
Para G is in the ULR Operational Plan, not the Contingency section. The same wording in the contingency section simply backs up the "normal" and limits the contingency operation, i.e. you still can't do more that 15 hours in a contingency situation.
Whichever way you choose to read it, I won't be doing any 22 hour FDPs with 3 crew, probably not with 4! Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's safe.
para G clearly, IMHO, states that a 3 man crew can operate a ULR flight which by definition would be planned between 14-15 hours flight time.
Para G is in the ULR Operational Plan, not the Contingency section. The same wording in the contingency section simply backs up the "normal" and limits the contingency operation, i.e. you still can't do more that 15 hours in a contingency situation.
Whichever way you choose to read it, I won't be doing any 22 hour FDPs with 3 crew, probably not with 4! Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's safe.
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FTL's are designed to stop fatigue onset. Tiredness starts when one reports for duty.
Ironically, EK plans on a report time of 60 minutes prior to STD. But what actually happens is pilots report between 90 and 100 minutes prior to STD.
So if one reports at the aircraft less than 60 minutes, then he/she must answer to his manager as to why he is late!! Doesn't make sense.
Most EK flights are into discretion from the beginning.
A three man crew operation is not workable, particularly when operating from a crowded airport with frequent departure delays.
Ensure your bacon is well covered before accepting such flights!!!
Ironically, EK plans on a report time of 60 minutes prior to STD. But what actually happens is pilots report between 90 and 100 minutes prior to STD.
So if one reports at the aircraft less than 60 minutes, then he/she must answer to his manager as to why he is late!! Doesn't make sense.
Most EK flights are into discretion from the beginning.
A three man crew operation is not workable, particularly when operating from a crowded airport with frequent departure delays.
Ensure your bacon is well covered before accepting such flights!!!
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From CAAP 14.
My understanding of CAAP is that EK can be more conservative but not less.
Eg. CAAP defines ULR>16hr flt time and Ek defines ULR>14.
However CAAP also says down route rest must be 48hrs and cabin crew must have 3.5 hrs rest!!!
7.4.1
Flight Crew compliment and composition
Each ULR flight is to be operated by no less than four (4) pilots of whom two (2) must be pilot-in-command qualified.
The duty flight crew shall comprise at least two pilots of which one crewmember is pilot- in-command qualified.
Flight Crew compliment and composition
Each ULR flight is to be operated by no less than four (4) pilots of whom two (2) must be pilot-in-command qualified.
The duty flight crew shall comprise at least two pilots of which one crewmember is pilot- in-command qualified.
Eg. CAAP defines ULR>16hr flt time and Ek defines ULR>14.
However CAAP also says down route rest must be 48hrs and cabin crew must have 3.5 hrs rest!!!
Last edited by Modesh; 19th Apr 2014 at 06:07.
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New Kid in town
What we are witnessing here is classic corporate politics of the expatriate kind. BM (Manager Regulatory Affairs) retired earlier in the year and we now have a new kid on the block who is trying to make his mark and ingratiate himself to his superiors by finding loopholes in the CARS. If he can show that it saves money he will be on a fast track to SVP.
BM had been around for years and seen it all tried before. Last time the three crew thing was tried it was a disaster and there was only JFK to think about. At that time The Chief Pilot Airbus, who was new to the job, and trying to impress instructed the dispatchers to make all flight plans for JFK indicate a departure from 30R and arrival JFK 22L to make the flight times appear shorter regardless of prevailing conditions.
This whole plan will look great on paper but will become an an unmitigated disaster when put into practice with our average on time performance being around 70% within 15 minutes of scheduled OBT even without a runway closure.
To EK Pilots I say be very clear on your understanding of the FDP limitations regarding ULR and apply them intelligently.
BM had been around for years and seen it all tried before. Last time the three crew thing was tried it was a disaster and there was only JFK to think about. At that time The Chief Pilot Airbus, who was new to the job, and trying to impress instructed the dispatchers to make all flight plans for JFK indicate a departure from 30R and arrival JFK 22L to make the flight times appear shorter regardless of prevailing conditions.
This whole plan will look great on paper but will become an an unmitigated disaster when put into practice with our average on time performance being around 70% within 15 minutes of scheduled OBT even without a runway closure.
To EK Pilots I say be very clear on your understanding of the FDP limitations regarding ULR and apply them intelligently.
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In a recent edition of SAFA, wasn't JFK the only destination never to have departed on time?
I agree with Gulf News, new kid trying to impress. It's not his licence on the block when everything goes pear shaped! May I suggest for those rostered these 3 man ULR's a very close look at the rules and regulations followed by an email to those concerned. Don't just sit back in the hope someone else will fight your battle.
Harry
I agree with Gulf News, new kid trying to impress. It's not his licence on the block when everything goes pear shaped! May I suggest for those rostered these 3 man ULR's a very close look at the rules and regulations followed by an email to those concerned. Don't just sit back in the hope someone else will fight your battle.
Harry