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Old 4th Jan 2017, 04:29   #1561 (permalink)


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Expats to RUH

So much for a choice... all expat crew will only be offered a RUH base and all expat renewal conctacts will be RUH based. You have no 'choice' in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Enjoy the six days off a month in your new home.

Saudia City is going to start looking pretty 'local' very soon.
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 12:50   #1562 (permalink)
 
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VAMY - Your third paragraph is bang on / correct!
Contract renewal letters are now not being seen as acceptable if you specify a Base & Type. It must be "open-ended" and at the behest of Saudia where, when and what type you are moved to.
Maybe in your home country that may be acceptable but as an expat well away from home in some other Foreign country, not acceptable (for many reasons).
I can see a lot of people using The Exit door coming up, if SV are not careful.

Last edited by Chocks Away; 4th Jan 2017 at 18:54.
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Old 5th Jan 2017, 10:21   #1563 (permalink)
 
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The 20/10 RUH base is now being officially offered.

It seems the price of the "10 day off block" is that 3 of your your current vacation/holiday entitlement are given up each month.

If my assumptions and mathematics serve me correctly, then the 20/10 offer translates into a productivity benefit in Saudia's favor at nil cost to them because I believe the "total yearly" days off enjoys at present will be reduced. If that is the case, then the expat pilot will effectively be self "funding" his 10 day off block from days off he would have already been entitled to on the present JED base contract.

Please do the maths for yourselves and confirm if my assumptions are correct or not?

Last edited by VAMY; 6th Jan 2017 at 12:34.
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Old 5th Jan 2017, 21:12   #1564 (permalink)
 
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Saudia is actually increasing the "leave" from 40 days total(30 vac, 10 hol) to 60, from the guaranteed block of 5 to 10, 5 days difference X12=60. So for the expats looking to commute is a good deal.

G
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Old 6th Jan 2017, 10:00   #1565 (permalink)
 
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I think you miss VANY's point.
We are self funding those extra days you mention (from 5/7 to 10) by taking our own Annual Leave days and spreading them throughout the year.
It's a "revenue neutral" move for the company in that regard, they just have to organise the scheduling & better plan the RUH trips... good luck with that!
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Old 6th Jan 2017, 11:34   #1566 (permalink)
 
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Guy's,

The 20/10 RUH is definitely not revenue neutral. As the current offer stands, the expats will be definitely giving more productivity to the company than is necessary.

Presently, days off per month per line are as follows.

Each line usually provides a minimum of nine days off per month. In reality, depending which fleet you are on and what line you have, you will usually get about an average of 12-14 days off per line per month. Presently, these days off do NOT include the "before flight" rest in RUH associated with most RUH pairings.

Therefore, on an annual basis, the average days off each month presently amount to approximately 10 months X 12 days, which equals 120 days. Annual vacation entitlement is 30 days, which gives an annual sub total of 150 days off. Then there are the 10 days holiday entitlement, which gives a further sub total of 160 days off per year. Finally, in the month in which you take you 10 days holiday you will also receive at least an average of 8 days off on your line. This gives a realistic minimum annual total of 168 days off.

If you devide the 168 by 12 you will get the average monthly days off that are potential and easily available. That figure amounts to 14 days of per month, each and every month, assuming you are prepared to give up your holiday and vacation entitlement. It does NOT in ANYWAY equate to 10 days off per month! If you accept 20/10 then you are, plainly speaking, being very f**king stupid and you get what you deserve! You will be giving up, as an absolute minimum, an extra 4 days off average per month that is currently enjoyed for ABSOLUTELY no benefit, financial or otherwise!

Furthermore, most lines presently include pairings from RUH that require dead heading credit to/from Riyadh AND a day's rest in RUH BEFORE the flight/flights from RUH begin. If you have three RUH pairings per month, that'll mean at least 3/4 days "before flight" rest RUH associated with the RUH pairings on your line each month. Some lines will have more than three RUH pairings.

In terms of productivity, those "before flight" rest days in RUH are effectively productivity days lost to the company because if you were not on " before flight" rest then the company could allocate you to a flight on those days instead.

If you become RUH based, on the 20/10, then those "before flight" rest days will be lost to you and will become available to the company to cover other trips. This is the opposite situation to what currently exists.

Assuming presently there are approximately 3 to 4 days "before or post flight" rest in RUH for most RUH pairings, then that will mean, in simplified terms, with the proposed RUH base, each RUH based pilot will be available to be utilized to crew an average of one, possibly two, extra pairings per month as compared to now. In other words, the company will be able to crew more flights from RUH with less crew than compared to the present. That's a big productivity benefit in the company's favor.

If you become "RUH Based" you will also be giving up the current dead head credit, which is a substantial payment over a year, as well as the "domestic layover expenses" associated with the "rest" periods in RUH. The "domestic layover expenses" also amount to a substantial annual payment which will also be lost to any RUH based pilot.

If you accept the "21/10" RUH base, you will give up approximately a minimum of 6-8 hours dead head credit each month, the associated "domestic layover expenses" and you will, in reality, replace all of this monetary loss by flying at least one extra trip per month for very little, if any, monetary benift. These productivity gains alone will pay for the RUH base many times over.

Not happy with gaining the above, the company really want to establish just how daft the expats are by also asking them to forfeit their present 30 days anunual vacation entitlement and possible the 10 days holiday entitlement as well!

Simply put, the productivity benefit to the company comes from the following facts.

On the 20/10 deal currently on offer you will give up, for no monetary gain, approximately 4 days off per month that you currently enjoy. An average of 6-8 hours "dead head" credit per month and an average of 4-5 nights "domestic layover" expanses each and every month.

You will replace that with an average of one or two pairings each month for little if no monetary benefit.

Honestly guys, which idiot is going to accept those terms when he will ALREADY have more than funded the RUH base from the productivity gains of losing the deadhead credit payment, domestic layover expenses and "before flight" rest day in RUH. Also, do not forget that on those "before flight" rest days you will now be operating an extra flight!

Come on guys, use your brains. Try to see what is really being offered!

The Saudi nationals have already figured it out and that's why they won't accept RUH base! I suspect the management figure that most of the expats will be plenty stupid enough to accept the offer that the Saudi's wouldn't!

By way of comparison, in order to attract its JED based staff to RUH, GACA are offering a 25% pay increase to attract its key staff to RUH! Even with such a good pay rise on offer, GACA are finding it extremely hard to attract staff that are willing to go or sufficient appplicants to replace them!

Last edited by VAMY; 11th Jan 2017 at 19:16.
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Old 6th Jan 2017, 16:46   #1567 (permalink)


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The memo is signed. There is no 'holding out for a better offer.' New and renewal expat contracts will be RUH based.
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Old 6th Jan 2017, 20:55   #1568 (permalink)
 
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Correct... I have seen the memo with my own eyes. One close friend verified its authenticity with the author.
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Old 7th Jan 2017, 06:28   #1569 (permalink)
 
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How many people are they seeking for RUH base? How many new hires are presently sitting in JED Hotels?

Quote:
you will give up, for no monetary gain, approximately 4 days off per month that you currently enjoy
You cant fly 20 days in a row, so you will still get some of these days off, but how are people going to earn anything but basic salary with the present rostering procedures?
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Old 7th Jan 2017, 10:39   #1570 (permalink)
 
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Mutt & Peasy,

At the moment there's an official company moratorium on overtime with the stated aim of reducing the overtime bill. I don't know if the overtime for the expats has been cut back in reality but on some fleets there's very little overtime available i.e. the A330, B747-8F & B787. I can't say if overtime has been reduced on the A320 or B777, although antecdotally it seems that overtime on those two fleets has also been reduced lately.

From what I've seen for the RUH roster patterns that have been suggested, the 18/14 option recommendation was that out of the 14 days off the pilot could elect for voluntary overtime on some of his days off, if he so wished.

I have also seen the memo Peasy mentions but I have also seen the document recommending differing roster patterns which strongly came out in favor of a 18/14 commuting roster on a cost favour basis to Saudia's benefit. The 20/10 roster was also discussed as an option but with that roster pattern the present holiday and vacation entitlement remained INTACT and WITHOUT the expat pilot having to give up ANY of the present holiday and vacation entitlement.

It's not accurate to say that no other roster pattern/option exists. They do exist, you're just not being given the opportunity to see them. VP Flight Operations knows this for sure because the document has been with him for about two months already. I'd suggest you go in and ask him if you can see it before you accept the first offer put in front of you. I'm sure that if you were trying to sell your house, whether in the States or the U.K, you wouldn't even consider taking the first offer available. Please, just apply the same logic as you would for selling your house when deciding on the RUH basing.

Don't accept the first offer put in front of you!

Last edited by VAMY; 7th Jan 2017 at 20:53.
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Old 8th Jan 2017, 01:05   #1571 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAMY View Post
Don't accept the first offer put in front of you!
What offer? There is no offer. All new hires and all contract renewals will be RUH base until further notice. Period. There are two options - to sign the contract or not to sign.

Overtime moratorium is nonsence. It's always cheaper to pay overtime rather then have more pilots with their training, basic salary, accomodation, etc. The thing is that it's simply not enough flights at the moment to go around. I don't know the reason. Overcapacity, seasonal, general downturn? Flights are seldom full and frequently being cancelled.
When they need someone to fly aeroplanes nobody talks about moratoriums, mostly about selling vacationsThey just don't need us these days.

Last edited by Romasik; 8th Jan 2017 at 01:30.
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Old 8th Jan 2017, 04:54   #1572 (permalink)
 
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Romanisk just a side note, empty seats are not the only evidence of a slowdown. I came back from vacation after 5 weeks. I was driving on Medina and Khaladia roads at 2130 on a Friday night, there were NO traffic jams! I don't recall seeing this ever on a weekend in the last decade.
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Old 8th Jan 2017, 16:22   #1573 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metro301 View Post
Romanisk just a side note, empty seats are not the only evidence of a slowdown. I came back from vacation after 5 weeks. I was driving on Medina and Khaladia roads at 2130 on a Friday night, there were NO traffic jams! I don't recall seeing this ever on a weekend in the last decade.
Another side note. Couple of months ago I saw ALL Concourse A, B and C gates at least on the field side occupied by Emirates aircraft. And a lot of them on remote stands. I have never seen picture like this in DXB.
Something is going on in the industry. Well, at least in its Middle East part.
I just had 3 flights cancelled: RUH-JED-DMM-JED...
RUH - JED was combined with 777, which flew half empty anyway...

Last edited by Romasik; 8th Jan 2017 at 17:37.
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Old 9th Jan 2017, 08:46   #1574 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romasik View Post
Another side note. Couple of months ago I saw ALL Concourse A, B and C gates at least on the field side occupied by Emirates aircraft. And a lot of them on remote stands. I have never seen picture like this in DXB.
Something is going on in the industry. Well, at least in its Middle East part.
I just had 3 flights cancelled: RUH-JED-DMM-JED...
RUH - JED was combined with 777, which flew half empty anyway...
Romasik,

What time of the day was it you were in DXB when you saw this? I'm asking because Emirates operates its flights, through DXB as its hub, on what is known as "a two wave arrival and departure" flow system. That means that twice during the day most of the gates at DXB will be nearly full of Emirates aircraft as their mainly long haul fleet arrives from their destinations with passengers and then transfers them, through DXB, onwards to their final destinations.

British Airways and Lufthansa operate similarly. With BA from 06:30am till about 08:00am most of their flights arrive from the Far East, Asia, Africa and India. They connect with West Bound Atlantic flights leaving approximately 2-3hrs later. There is a similar East bound wave to India, Asia and beyond that occurs late in the evening.

My guess is you arrived DXB in the middle of one of Emirates "Departure and Arrival Waves". The use of remote stands with lots of Emirates aircraft parked on them confirms this. When the "arrival and departure" wave systems is in use by an airline it is quite common for all main terminal gates to be full at the airlines home base or main hub when a "wave" is in progress.

The same process is planned to be introduced at Saudia from sometime this year, so expect to see plenty of adjustments to Saudia's flight schedules.

I will post a reply later on concerning the RUH base roster pattern alternatives, as well as the explanation on why there's not much overtime at present.

Last edited by VAMY; 9th Jan 2017 at 13:33.
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Old 9th Jan 2017, 09:00   #1575 (permalink)
 
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Vamy, as you mentioned, waves benefit connecting passenger flows.

Is their goal to become a major transit airline like Emirates? If so, this will be interesting to watch.....
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Old 9th Jan 2017, 10:50   #1576 (permalink)
 
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VAMY:
I don't remember exactly. At night. It was dark. But my point is that over more then 20 years flying to DXB at different times of the day, sometimes at peak arrivals, I saw it for the first time. May be I just wasn't lucky enough.
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Old 9th Jan 2017, 13:51   #1577 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romasik View Post
VAMY:
I don't remember exactly. At night. It was dark. But my point is that over more then 20 years flying to DXB at different times of the day, sometimes at peak arrivals, I saw it for the first time. May be I just wasn't lucky enough.
Romasik,

If it was night time and all the DXB main gates were full, as well as many of the remote stands, with Emirates aircraft then I expect that one of the two "arrival/departure waves" was in full swing. However, if you've been flying to DXB for the last 20 years I would've expected you would've seen this phenomena before. I too have flown to DXB many times over the last 20 years or so but whenever I arrived the gates were nearly always full. I usually arrived late at night. The same phenomena can also be seen clearly at JFK,PVG and to a lesser extent at HKG. On many occasions in the past I've had to wait at least 30 minutes for a parking gate to become available due to terminal congestion at both of these airports.

The other scenarios that would likely have all the gates at DXB full with Emirates aircraft would be if the airline had a full blown industrial action by one of the key employment groups or a system wide ATC problem . Those scenarios are very unlikely-you would've heard about it in the news. Alternatively, bad weather extending over a number of hours, such as widespread thick fog, heavy dust storm similar to that affecting RUH a couple of years, heavy snow fall or the like can cause the same phenomena.

Other than the above, I can't explain why you've not seen DXB full of Emirates aircraft in the past.

Last edited by VAMY; 9th Jan 2017 at 17:35.
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Old 9th Jan 2017, 14:01   #1578 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metro301 View Post
Vamy, as you mentioned, waves benefit connecting passenger flows.

Is their goal to become a major transit airline like Emirates? If so, this will be interesting to watch.....
Yes, to a certain extent, Saudia's aim is firstly to improve the inter-connectivity of their flights and reduce transit times between flights, thus making Saudia more attractive to the traveling public. This is particularly so, in the first instance, in relation to travelers intending to travel to East Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. The increase in the A330 fleet size is intended to cater to this need.

The same principle will then be applied to other geographical areas and route network as and when more terminal and aircraft parking capacity becomes available. In this respect, the delay with the opening of the new terminal area is affecting expansion plans.

Last edited by VAMY; 9th Jan 2017 at 17:33.
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Old 9th Jan 2017, 19:40   #1579 (permalink)
 
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Saudi Arabian Airlines appoints new chairman | Arab News
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 20:09   #1580 (permalink)
 
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Romasik,

Firstly, Riyadh is the political, administrative and diplomatic capital of the Kingdom. Over 40% of the airlines flights are from RUH alone. There is a lot of political pressure on Saudia management to get the RUH base up and running. Crewing the RUH base is an absolute political and commercial imperative for Saudia. The base should've been up, running and fully crewed by June 2017 at the latest. It wasn't

The original hope to crew the RUH base was that the many Saudi national flight crew who are currently living in RUH and DMM would be interested in the base. They weren't, mainly because of the cut in pay from reduced dead head credit and "domestic layover expenses" but also because they would be now be available to cover more RUH flight for little or no financial gain.

This would be possible because the present "before flight rest" in RUH, after dead heading, would no longer be needed. That in turn would free up an extra 4-5 days for each of these presently RUH domiciled Saudi national flight crew. At present these Saudi national flight crew are enjoying these 4-5 days as "extra days" off at home in either RUH/DMM. With a RUH base these "extra days off" for RUH/DMM domiciled Saudi national flight crew would be lost. Instead, SV Crewing would then utilize them and the days off "given up" to crew more flights but for little or no financial gain. Effectively, these Saudis would be "giving up" the presently enjoyed "extra paid days off" they were ALREADY receiving but for LESS or NO financial benefit.

Furthermore, the company won't be able to attract the Saudi nationals to RUH base, going forward, unless they can make up the salary shortfall the current RUH basing options would entail.

With the Saudi national option failed and in tatters, as an alternative, they hope to crew the RUH base with as many expats as they can get instead.

A feasibility study was undertaken on behalf of Flight Operations management to establish what would be needed to attract the expats to crew the RUH base. The results of the study recommended a "commuting" option, based on 14 block days off, would be the most attractive. Current vacation and holiday entitlement enjoyed by the expat pilots would have to contribute to the monthly block of "14 days off". This "14 days off commuting roster" was to be supported with the present JED "home " basing for current expat pilots with families in JED who did not want to move RUH or take the "commuting roster" option. The 20/10 option was also given as an option but with the RETENTION of the present holiday and vacation entitlement.

The proposal currently on offer by Saudia wants the expats to sacrifice their present holiday and leave entitlement, just to "achieve" the "10 day off" block being dangled in front of them. The financial saving from the expat's "sacrifice", if given, will without doubt be used to "improve" the salary to entice Saudis to RUH base by subsidizing their base move with a financial incentive or subsidize, in the short term, the continued dead head credit of JED based Saudi crew who will not accept a RUH base. The present deal on offer to the expat pilots REMOVES all "JED" home basing as when the contract of the expat pilot comes up for renewal.

As for Saudia no longer needing the expat pilot workforce. The age demographics of the current SV Saudi flight crew workforce would strongly indicate the opposite, at least for the next 5-7 years. If you look at the history of Saudia and how long it has been in existence, you will quickly see that it is anomaly by comparison with practically any other carrier in the geographic region. In effect it has more in common, in terms of pilot work force demographics, with the big US or European legacy carriers. Most if Saudia's present senior Captains were recruited in one intense period. This group of senior Saudia Captains will ALL reach the mandatory 65 yrs Gregorian retirement age for commercial pilots in the next 3-7 years time.

This group of Saudi pilots equates to about 25% of the current Saudia Captains seniority list. In other words the airline will lose 25% of its most senior and experienced Captains in the next 5-7 years. There is no way, whatsoever, that Saudia can prevent this from happening, or negate the commercial consequences, of so many of their senior pilots having to retire without the services of experienced expat Captains. So, certainly for the next 5-7 years, the expat Captain pilot group should be safe at Saudia and more certainly if you are in the A330 fleet. After that time, your guess as what would happen would be as good a guess as any.

Clearly, from what has been laid out above, the upper hand in the RUH base proposal lies with the expats. In this respect the arrival of the new CEO, who is an expat, together with the not so coincidental replacement of the Chairman of the Board of the Saudi Holding Group and supported by new strategic Saudia board members, moves the game more in favour of the expat pilots than they probably realize.

They just have to know "how to play their hand".

Last edited by VAMY; 11th Jan 2017 at 20:31.
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